Don't major in engineering!!

<p>My dad got his bachelors in electronic communications (read: TV and radio) and then got his master's in political science. When he got out of the military, his first civvy job was supervising engineers for a government contract company.</p>

<p>None of the engineers could write, or even talk very lucidly. My dad would sit down, talk to them, and then write their reports, leaving blanks for them to fill in.</p>

<p>"First, you take the ______ and then you turn on the _<strong><em>. This works because of _</em></strong>."</p>

<p>
[quote]
snuffles says: I've never seen such concentrated anti-engineering consolidated in one post! I think it's an exaggeration - anyone with useful skills and intelligence can and will succeed as an engineer. Making such broad generalizations about a massive component of the work force is sheer paranoia

[/quote]
That's the entire snuffles post, BTW. I was wondering what replies I'd get, and so far this is my favorite! I can't imagine a more content-free response. You could post exactly this same response changing the word engineer to anything else -- lawyer, doctor, garbage-collector. In short it addresses exactly none of the specific issues about job loss, age discrimination, college experience, social life, etc.</p>

<p>To unbeknownstangel, show the post to your dad and let us know what he says. I think he'll be largely in agreement, although if he loves his job as you say then he won't agree with the emphasis or conclusions.</p>

<p>Collegehelp seems to have missed the sentence right near the top of the pasted text in her/his post that says
[quote]
Employment of electrical and electronics engineers is expected to grow more slowly than the average for all occupations through 2012.

[/quote]
Given the push for H1B visas to address the "shortage" of skilled professionals it is quite telling the US Labor Dept. predicts this rather than toeing the party line and forcasting heavy demand. Just today the SJ Mercury reported "A Senate committee Thursday approved a nearly 50 percent increase in special visas coveted by Silicon Valley companies to hire highly skilled foreign workers ". Why does a field growing <em>slower</em> than the rest of the economy need to import workers?</p>

<p>To continue on my earlier post:</p>

<p>Engineering can be a solid pre-law background for patent law (if you choose your liberal arts courses wisely). Also, it is very possible to go to med school after doing Biological Engineering / BME (which is a VERY hot field right now...)</p>

<p>The social life thing is more a function of engineers than it is of engineering school. I'm an engineer, and I party as hard or harder than most - you don't have to spend that much time on homework if you are a reasonably intelligent person, but many engineers lack the core social competency to want to go out in the first place. </p>

<p>Age discrimination is an issue in many jobs, not just engineering - though if someone doesn't get on the management track somehow, I'd agree its probably more brutal in engineering.</p>

<p>College experience wise, it is different, not worse. I personally have no desire to take random history classes (I enjoy some kinds of history, i.e. US history and military history, but Cornell doesn't have a military history class and I already have a pretty good background in US history, plus it isn't hard to learn what you want to about US history) or english/art/etc... classes. I certainly could, though, if I wanted to - I'm double majoring and getting a MEng in 8 semesters (that's largely because of AP credit), and if I was just doing a standard single major I would have all the time in the world to go and take whatever classes I wanted to. The only non-engineering classes I really want to take might be one on game-theory or more advanced econ, and I can certainly fit that into my schedule. </p>

<p>Also, just because growth of EE jobs is slower than average does NOT mean there isn't a shortage of workers.</p>

<p>Consider:
There is demand for X EE jobs at the moment, but only Y (Y<x) ee="" jobs="" are="" supplied="" domestically.="" there="" allowances="" for="" f="" foreign="" workers="" to="" be="" imported="" with="" x=""> Y + F.
The growth rate of all jobs is A, the growth rate of electrical engineerg jobs is E, and the rate at which US colleges are graduating electrical engineers is Z.<br>
If Z<E, then even if E<A there will be increasing shortages of domestic workers which will require increased foreign importation to fill need. </x)></p>

<p>The only way your argument would be valid would be if EE jobs were not just increasing at a rate lesser than the national average but rather were decreasing outright.</p>

<p>Thus, you have still yet to prove that it will be that difficult to get a job.</p>

<p>Why bother arguing this guy's post? He just brings up the same tired bit. His arguments have already lost meaning. He has a personal agenda, and he's trying to push it. Take his points with a very liberal grain of salt.</p>

<p>lucifer11287 I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Oddly enough, while you don't believe my conclusion you confirm several observations. You seemingly agree about the social life aspect, and about age discrimination. Coming in with an armload of AP credit does make the workload more manageable and is a great alternative (financially, at least) to the 5 year program I advocate; I will include that in next year's edition. Your stated lack of interest in taking advantage of the increible diversity of courses taught by many of the leading scholars in the field available to you at one of the pre-eminent universities in this country (Cornell) is a bit distressing, but I guess that's your choice.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, just because growth of EE jobs is slower than average does NOT mean there isn't a shortage of workers.
Consider:
There is demand for X EE jobs at the moment, but only Y (Y<X) EE jobs are supplied domestically.

[/quote]
You might WANT to take that econ class you mentioned in your post :) Already you're on the wrong track. Econ 1 will teach you that there is no such thing as "demand" as a single quantity the way you use it; there is a demand curve that is sometimes termed "demand" and at various points along it we can talk about the "amount demanded". Starting from a flawed assumption about "demand" you can string together all the equations you want but their meaning is just as invalid as their flawed foundation. (And to save a reply, no reasonable person will argue the demand for engineers is perfectly inelastic which would let us talk about a single quantity X at all prices.) When Bill Gates talks about a "shortage" what he means is he can't find enough people at the price he'd like to pay. Once there was a widely derided arrogant quote to the effect of "what's good for General Motors is good for the country ..." Maybe the modern version should substitute Microsoft?</p>

<p>You're right. I had an internship on Wall Street and everyone there convinced me to not major in engineering. Who ever said that any successful engineer would probably be even more successful at other things is also right.</p>

<p>I think the smartest student will do the following:</p>

<p>-major in engineering
-pursue carreers outside of engineering right out of college</p>

<p>why?</p>

<p>because engineering is like putting your brain on steroids and super developing it. It prepares you like nothing else for all sorts of challenges and critical thinking</p>

<p>Marleys_ghost-- As a manager in an environmental consulting & engineering firm, I couldn't disagree with you more. I suspect your reaction to the engineering profession may be specific to the comp or EE world, but it certainly isn't mine, where civil & environmental engineers see a strong market ahead & we all manage to have plenty of time with our families while still making some good doe. Yes, gender parity has always been a struggle in engineering and most of the scientific disciplines I have worked with over the years, but I see continual improvement. And by necessity, my co-workers are US citizens.</p>

<p>In short, I would not hesitate to recommend the environmental engineering field to my own kids.....its fun & technically challenging, the field has a "feel-good" quality, it has lots & lots of variety & people exposure, its a growing field, and while most in the field may not be driving the Caddy after 5 years, there's still plenty of room for upward mobility.</p>

<p>ok... since this is a hot post right now i have a question... is it possible to major in chemE in undergrad and go into biochem or biomed engineering for grad school? My first choice doesnt offer biochem or biomed, so if this isnt possible I might be thinking of switching majors.</p>

<p>terry-- absolutely yes....just go to UPenn's chem & biomolecular e dept web page & check out what research the prof's do.
<a href="http://www.seas.upenn.edu/cbe/faculty.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.seas.upenn.edu/cbe/faculty.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>X-over at graduate level to the now conventional biomed/biotech/bioeng type of program is common from what I've seen.</p>

<p>Is it good to major in Civil or Mech E, Papa Chicken?</p>

<p>Hi Flipsta_G....not sure what you mean by your question??</p>

<p>Papa Chicken, what do you typically do as a civil engineer? I read the job description, but am still a bit unclear as to what is expected.</p>

<p>Whomever says engineering is bad and tries to dissuade people from going into it is an idiot. While it's true you're better off not taking it for undergrad (physics/chemistry/comp sci is usually better depending on what kind of engineering) the proffesion itself has a lot to offer. This is a bad thread and I'm unsubscribing as soon as I'm done posting this.</p>

<p>I mean that you recommend Environmental E, Papa Chicken, but what about either Civil or Mechanical E? Are they good things to major in?</p>

<p>This is a good, if not long, read related to the OP:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=81502&page=1&pp=20%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=81502&page=1&pp=20&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Flipsta.....working on your response now....PC</p>

<p>Luceusnoodles—this reference material should help give you a sense of what civil engineers do…..</p>

<p>First, some other threads that cover civil engineering:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=64164%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=64164&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=73511%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=73511&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Bur. Of Labor Statistics on civil engineering:
<a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos030.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos030.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>links to civil engineering college programs:
<a href="http://www.asce.org/community/educational/instlist.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.asce.org/community/educational/instlist.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I’ve worked for both a civil firm & an environmental firm…both on the consulting side (vs working for the government or industry). At both firms, civil engineers do both design work & general consulting. Design work includes performing calc’s, creating plans & drawings, developing specifications, and other documents needed to construct a “civil” facility. Such facilities can range from landfills to highways to bridges & much more. So, the design-oriented engineer does quite a bit of drawing-table work, but needs to get to the field or meet with clients during project planning and execution. </p>

<p>Some civil engineers do less design, but focus on consulting aspects, like advising clients about civil works & dealing with permits and regulators, or construction management. CM is dominated by civil engineers, and has been a hot area the past few years. CM includes inspection & oversight of contractors on construction sites, scheduling, procurement, you name it.</p>

<p>Civil engineering is a very broad field, & the next level of detail from this description would be several pages. I suggest you read the materials linked above, and if you are still curious, dig into <a href="http://www.asce.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.asce.org&lt;/a> some more.</p>

<p>Thank you Papa Chicken, I am about to private message you on further questions if you don't mind.</p>

<p>Flipsta.....I think I can categorically affirm that the civil field is close to being as strong as the pure environmental engineering field. There is quite a bit of overlap in both disciplines, in academia & in practice. Civil engineering students are often in the "civil & environmental engineering" department, and civil engineers work on many environmental projects, such as wastewater treatment & contaminated site remediation. Structural engineering is another off-shoot, so to speak, of civil.....being more focused on "structural" issues as the name implies, like building bridges. The "vertical construction" part of the civil engineering field has a different set of drivers than the environmental industry, but although there are cycles for sure over decades, our society always has to build new infrastructure, or repair whats already there, so civil engineers are always in demand. I have a VERY difficult time finding enough engineers (mostly env, civil, some chem, a few mech) who can also talk & write well.</p>

<p>I don't know as much about the mechanical engineering world, but based upon the general engineering marketplace that I deal with, seems like mechanicals are always in demand also. Mechanical engineers have many many options, from working in a firm like mine to building the space shuttle. The mechanicals at my firm work on pollution abatement designs for industrial clients, alternative fuel vehicles, treatment systems, and more.</p>

<p>In the private sector design-consulting world, you'll see "A&E" (architect & engineer) firms specializing in civil & structural engineering, and some specializing in mechanical & electrical ("M&E") engineering. The big firms have all major engineering disiplines (except perhaps aeronautical, nuclear & petroleum).</p>

<p>SO WHAT MAKES A "GOOD" MAJOR?.......I've only been talking here about the prospects of these types of engineers. As many have pointed out, getting the degree is a major challenge, realy no matter which engineering discipline you pick (but I wouldn't pick chem e unless I was a brainiac!). I think its safe to speculate that gender parity is better in industries that have multidisciplanry work-forces where those disciplines other than engineers attrack more women. Thats why the environmental consulting industry has more parity IMO, cause there are more women env scientists. Likewise probably for the life sciences & medical fields. But, probably not the case for many other engineering intensive industries.</p>

<p>Much discussion has taken place on CC regarding jobs being shipped overseas. While some design engineering jobs have gone to India, many environmental, civil & mechanical projects require ONSITE oversight. While US projects may have elements outsourced overseas, there is still a need for local leadership & interaction w/ clients, contractors, regulators, and the site, so I'm not too worried. I have heard of big civil designs going overseas, but haven't heard that its affected the environmental industry yet.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

<p>ps......one way you can get a better idea of each discipline's character in the context of deciding what to major in, is to study the research interests & projects of each engineering department's faculty. While their research most probably will not reflect whats going on in the non-academic world, it will help you better characterize each discipline.</p>

<p>I can't affirm or deny anything Marleys_ghost said, but my dad is a civil engineer nearing his 50s, and he's still working like hell everyday. We hardly ever see him around the house, because he's either working in his office or in his home office. Still, don't take this too seriously, as perhaps civil engineers have it tougher here overseas than in the US.</p>