Don't Major in Engineering!!

College Search & Selection
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<p>There are a number of threads seeking advice on engineering, so its time to post a warning about engineering for those who are just now coming to this board. Like Marley's ghost in "A Christmas Carol" I'm here to show you what your future will be like unless you make some changes. Let me tell you right now, so you can say you were warned -- ENGINEERING IS A TERRIBLE CAREER CHOICE!!</p>

<p>I've posted this for a few years now and it's always controversial, but you need to hear this advice more than ever. And since today is Labor Day in the US it feels especially appropriate to warn kids to avoid a work pitfall. </p>

<p>Print this letter out, read it over, read it over again. If you don't believe me, just show it to anyone who ACTUALLY works in engineering. It's a little longer than most posts, I know, but we're talking about your future here, and I can't give you enough info in 3 sweet paragraphs. </p>

<p>And when you read replies filled with venom and mud-slinging, be sure to ask yourself if they address the actual points I make or are just meant to distract you from the real issues. I post links and give info you can easily verify on the web; ask yourself if the critics do the same. BTW I am an engineer with a decade+ experience who has worked at several companies that are household hi-tech names; I just wish there had been someone there to warn ME when I was 18 what I was really getting into.</p>

<p>So who are you, the prospective engineer? Maybe you have a knack for math and science courses so well-meaning parents/teachers are steering you into engineering. Maybe you like the cool toys you have -- the PC, the DVD player, the cell phone, video games, and think it would be fun to help create things like them. Maybe the attractive starting salary (among the highest for college grads, BTW) sounds great. Or perhaps you dislike uncertainty and ambiguitity, and finding a job after college worries you -- how DO English and History majors find jobs anyway? Everyone knows the "want fries with that?" joke, and you figure if you major in engineering at least that won't be your fate. </p>

<p>But make no mistake about it. If you go into engineering, odds are you will regret the choice a few years down the line. I'm going to spell out exactly why. </p>

<p>As an engineer
1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.
2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to explore academic areas
3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.
4) the hours will be excessively long
5) you will be surrounded primarily by men at work
6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners
7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you
8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job
9) you're NOT going to get into management
10) the long-term outlook for engineers grows more dismal each year</p>

<p>1) Missing out on fun in College -- as an engineering major you will be loaded down with labs and problem sets. You'll know the library better than your dorm room since you will spend more time there, working late most nites and on the weekend. Your buddies are going hiking and skiing, visiting friends at other colleges, going to bars and pizza places in town, surfing the web, going to the concerts and events on campus, and so on; YOU, by and large, will be studying.</p>

<p>Even the industry press acknowledges this; recently in EETimes they wrote "There's a sense among students of, 'Why should I stay? My friends are studying half as long as me and having a better time,' " said Ray Almgren, vice president of product strategy for National Instruments. See <a href="http://tinyurl.com/642tf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://tinyurl.com/642tf&lt;/a> The outcome is that on average 1 out of every 2 people who start in engineering switch out before graduating. For EE it is 2 out of 3!! BTW keep these stats in mind if you're considering a college focused mainly on engineering; with the odds at least 50:50 you'll leave the major, what are your alternatives going to be?</p>

<p>I'll note in passing that some guys choose engineering precisely to avoid the social life most kids are seeking. I was surprised how many guys majoring in engineering had NEVER gone on a date in HS. In college instead of admitting they don't want to go to a party because they're scared to talk to girls or don't know how, the easy excuse is "need to study". </p>

<p>And I say "guys" deliberately because thats who the studens are; these days only about 1/6 of the students getting engineering degrees are women (and thats considered an improvement over the past!). </p>

<p>2) missing out on a chance to explore academic areas -- For most students college is a golden time to explore other areas as well as their major. Take an art class, learn about history, perhaps your college has a famous scholar who's class you can take. Spend a semester overseas and build memories for a lifetime. Most students can do this. To pick Ohio State as a random example, if you are a history major you have 10 required classes for the major; see <a href="http://www.history.ohio-state.edu/undergrad/majorreq.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.history.ohio-state.edu/undergrad/majorreq.htm&lt;/a> The rest of your classes include some required breadth classes, but by and large you can pursue your cultural and intellectual interests. College is a glorious time for the intellectually curious! </p>

<p>And then there is engineering. Engineering is different. There is just so much to learn that you will be loaded down every semester with lots of required courses. Engineering programs are similar at almost every college since they're standardized by a group known as ABET. So lets go back and take a look at Ohio State. If you choose EE, for example, during your 4 years of college you will get to choose exactly 7 courses outside of science & engineering!! And BTW they must be on an approved list, not too many in any one area since they are your distribution requirements. See <a href="http://eewww.eng.ohio-state.edu/academic/pdf/ughndbk.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://eewww.eng.ohio-state.edu/academic/pdf/ughndbk.pdf&lt;/a> Choose wisely... And forget about going overseas if you're planning on graduating in 4 years since you won't be able to get the required courses there.</p>

<p>Actually if you are going into engineering anyway and take only one thing away from this post, it would be this heartfelt advice. If you major in engineering, plan from the start to take 5 years to get your undergrad degree so you have some time to experience and explore something in college besides endless classes in math and engineering. </p>

<p>3) Engineering employers are concentrated in a few large areas Austin, Silicon Valley, LA, Boston, and some others. Sure there are engineers working many other places, but when there are just a few shops in town the salary is going to be lower because they know you don't have many options. Even during the boom salaries in San Diego were 25-35% lower than Silicon Valley just because the employers weren't bidding that hard against one another. And you have to put up with more cr*p because where are you going to go if you don't like it? Right now it may be hard for this to seem like a realistic concern because everything you own probably fits into a few boxes and you don't have kids, but imagine your life a 10-15 years out. To put it another way, how easy would it be for your parents to drop everything and move to a new city? Add to that concerns about layoffs. If you lose your job in a town with few engineering employers you're basically going to have to move to get another one. The upshot is that the engineer seeking stability chooses to live in a place with more hi-tech employers, meaning he only has the choice of a handful of major cities. </p>

<p>4) long hours -- EETimes reported "In an open letter to Congress this past week, IEEE-USA president Bryant said that long hours, stressful job conditions and other factors are converging to 'make careers in engineering less attractive,' " </p>

<p>Why? Coming out of school you might expect to work long hours to "prove" yourself. However as a working engineer these long hours are going to be the norm for your career. For example, suppose a project with 45 people working on it just took 18 months from start to customer ship, and now they are launching the successor. A good estimate is 18 months, but some manager who wants a big bonus will step up and say he can do it in 14. What the secret? Simple. He simply brings in the deadlines for various steps by 4 months. You get to work late into the night and on weekends to make up those 4 missing months, he gets praise from his bosses and a big end-of-the-year check for "his" accomplishement. When you go home at 8:30pm every nite you can't do much more than chow down, pay the bills, and go to sleep just to do it all over again the next day. </p>

<p>So why don't people just change jobs? If you're in a smaller town, see issue (3). And in general it's hard to leave. During good times you'll learn from experience the grass isn't much greener over the fence. The next employer will have a manager just as aggressive to look good by pulling in schedules. During bad times, well nobody's hiring. In short, good times or bad, its hard to leave.</p>

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<p>(continued because of the length limit)</p>

<p>5) mostly men -- these days only about 1/6 of the students getting engineering degrees are women (and thats considered an improvement over the past!). The women you meet at work are going to primarily be the admin for the group and the ladies working in the cafeteria. So if you think that will be meeting women socially on the job, think again. Its easy to pooh-pooh this when you're in HS or college, but once you start on your career most of the people you meet during your waking hours are going to be coworkers. A lot of guys find dates/spouses among women they work with and the friends of those women; much less likely in engineering.</p>

<p>6) mostly foreigners -- out here in CA I'd say the hi-tech workforce is 1/3 chinese, 1/3 indian, 1/3 white. If you've ever wanted to feel like a minority in your own country, engineering is the job for you. And BTW many don't bother with soap or deodorant because that's the way things are back home. Mother Jones, a leftist magazine that can scarcely manage a word of criticism of any non-white culture, noted in an article about the adjustments foreigners make when coming here -- "Ravi's boss actually took him shopping for deodorant" (see "High-Tech Melting Pot" in August 4, 1998 issue).</p>

<p>7) your salary will top out early. Many HS students are attracted by the high starting salaries for engineers. However don't be misled by the number that applies at one point in your life. You will be working for 30+ years and you need to consider what happens over that span. Liberal arts majors may start out in relatively low-paying jobs but as they prove themselves and become more valuable they rise in salary. Now if you already expect that you won't be able to prove yourself in business maybe tech is right for you; but for those who have faith in themselves after a dozen years or so those engineers will be working for you! </p>

<p>It turns out that salaries in engineering rise rapidly for 6 or 7 years and then plateau. Why is that? Because the ideal engineering employee is someone with 3-5 years experience. After you've been around the block once or twice you know what needs to get done on a project, you know how to run the tools, work with the vendor, debug the product in the lab, etc. After this its just turning the crank again. Unlike doctors or lawyers or other professionals who become more valued as they get older, the most valued engineers are 25-30 or so. They seldom have families so they don't complain about the long hours, and they can be plugged right into the project. </p>

<p>Another source of the salary cap is the H1B program. Your friends in Congress let hi-tech employers bring in 65K workers from overseas each year (thats where the Chinese and Indians come from). And its communist China, BTW. Think about that. Do they say "well, lawyers are making too much so lets bring in 100,000 each year to help keep the cost of legal advice down?" No. Same with doctors, accountants, other professions. But even though the limit was pushed down to 65K for a few years after the dot-com bust, Congress has been busy listening to it's corporate donors and is going to raise it to 165,000. The beauty of this program to employers is the visa is for 5 years and is non-renewable. In other words they can get a worker at low cost, have him work his ass off for a couple of years, and then US Immigration boots him out of the country before he starts demanding more! </p>

<p>And BTW search on the web and you'll find out that even though this program is supposed to address the "shortage" of workers, there is no requirement that H1B visa holders be laid off before American workers! So since they make less, many companies have been doing just that; firing the Americans and keeping the cheaper foreigners. All perfectly legal. </p>

<p>8) By the time your only in your 30's you'll be worried about your job. That's right! The ideal employee is 25-30, so by the time you get a little older you might not be as willing to work the insane hours. And since your salary goes up a little each year (2-4%), after a few more years all of a sudden you are making 20% more than people doing essentially the same work. So you're first out the door and the last one in. </p>

<p>IF YOU FOLLOW NO OTHER LINK IN THIS POSTING, you have to read "Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage" at <a href="http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html&lt;/a> It's from a UC Davis professor and it spells out in great detail exactly why you are going to have trouble finding work by the time you are in your late 30's. The article is aimed primarily at software people since the professor teaches CS, but it applies to all the other engineering disciplines as well. </p>

<p>As he points out, "An InformationWeek survey of hiring managers found that only 2% of them would prefer to hire an applicant with more than 10 years of experience." 2%!!! See how many of the rebuttal posts bother to address that. He also notes that "Twenty years after graduation from college, only 19% of computer science majors are still employed as programmers". </p>

<p>In most other professions, those with experience are valued. You want your lawyer to have seen a bunch of similar cases, your doctor to have experience, your accountant, your professor, and so on. But to be honest engineering is blue-collar assembly-line work done with the mind instead of the hands. So sure, it's indoor work with no heavy lifting, but all they want is a couple of years experience and then you're as good as you're going to get as far as industry is concerned. </p>

<p>Think about this quote from another online article: 'I spent seven years in school, and it resulted in a six-year career,' says Mr. Porter, who feels his master's degree in engineering is little more than 'a base.' From the same article: "Many engineers are facing a challenge of a different sort. Graying engineers who have decades of work experience are as rare as a black and white TV. Even those under 40 are often considered old". See the article "A Short Circuit for US Engineering Careers" at <a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1226/p02s01-usec.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1226/p02s01-usec.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>9) You won't be a manager. If you share this post with your teachers or counselor, they might not object too strongly to the 8 points above. But they have an ace left up their sleeve. They'll smile and say "The age discrimination might be real, and maybe most people aren't working in what they slaved over learning in college, but it doesn't matter to you. See, you'll be a manager". If only it were true! Sure, in a growing field there's room for advancement. But other than the phony numbers the industry manufactures to justify the H1B programs, there's not a huge amount of growth left in engineering. Actually it's already shrinking in some areas due to offshoring. So do the math. The average 1st-line manager has 10 employees. Since hi-tech is barely growing or is actually shrinking, less than 1/10 of those starting in hi-tech will become managers. </p>

<p>10) long term the outlook is bleak for engineers. Its easy to ignore slow changes until they are pervasive. Global warming, for instance. But here's a fun one. Ask your parents or teachers (if they're old enough) what the perception was of Japanese quality back in the 60's. You aren't going to believe the answer!!! Today manufacturers like Lexus and Japanese electronics companies set the standard, but back then the stuff was seen as junk, low quality stuff nobody wanted. And yet today they dominate. The change was gradual but sure, people were able to ignore what was happening right under their noses, and then all of a sudden the american manufacturers were dead. </p>

<p>The same inexorable change is dooming engineering in the US. Employers just want low costs and their search to find them is going to make even that high starting salary go away. Most major hi-tech companies already have engineering efforts overseas. going to happen in engineering. Recently Microsoft announced it is investing $400 million in India, and they've probably spent more since then (see <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ar87d%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://tinyurl.com/ar87d&lt;/a&gt;) And the 65,000 (soon to be 100,000) trained workers that are going back home just about when you get out of college, well they are competing against american workers on salary. In October 2005 Cisco announced it's investing over 1 BILLION dollars in India (see <a href="http://tinyurl.com/cr7wj)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://tinyurl.com/cr7wj)&lt;/a>. And in 2006 IBM said they were going to spend 6 billion dollars in India. Think what this all means for your career prospects when you graduate college a few years from now ...</p>

<p>Here's what's going on. American employers are capping salaries today by bringing in hundreds of thousands of cheap workers. And after a couple of years they go home where they continue working for tech employers, but now at 1/4 or less of what an american makes. It takes a while to get the critical mass going. At first they start with sustaining engineering (eg supporting existing products), then they will move to having the overseas workers cost-reduce existing products. Next they will be used to add improvements to existing products, at which point they are poised for the final blow. New product development will go to Shanghai and Bangalore, and then who needs those overpaid Americans anymore? </p>

<p>This change is coming, its already starting. Just like the Japanese change from junk manufacturers to best in the world, it may take a decade or two but its going to happen. And in a decade or two you're barely 30, then what are you going to do?</p>

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<p>Your post is full of flaws and hopefully won't deter anyone who really wants to go into engineering from not doing so. To whoever else is reading this, do your own research and don't rely on ill-informed posts like this one.</p>

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<p>Didn't someone else already copy/paste this article two years ago? :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>Yes, I remember reading this exact post 2 years ago by this same person. Here it is: <a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/4/92368.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeconfidential.com/discus/messages/4/92368.html&lt;/a>. I'm guessing he/she was an engineer, but hated it/burned out/got fired and now tries to warn others because of bitterness.</p>

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<p>I skimmed it a bit. To those that object, what's your support/evidence? The main/only thing I'm worried about is job stability and whether I'd be ranking in enough to support myself and possibly a family in the future.</p>

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<p>Take a look at who's hiring and starting salaries, etc. for evidence. And who do you think most engineering managers are? They're engineers. Who do you think tends to be promoted to directors and VPs of engineering? Engineers. This 'ghost' seems to have some kind of ax to grind.</p>

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<p>By Flopsy (Flopsy) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 09:25 pm: Edit
It's either Engineering or "would you like fries with that?" </p>

<p>lol flopsy</p>

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<p>haha....the part about not being able to go out with your friends amused me...what if you're friends are engineering majors too??? you could spend all your time in the library being losers together:) :) I'm still going to major in engineering....and I'm going to have a hell of a lot of fun doing so. :)</p>

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<p>I have no connection with engineering whatsoever - education wise. But I know a fair number as friends and family.</p>

<p>There are elements of truth in the primary post. If any of this concerns you, investigate the area carefully before investing too much time or money. There are down sides to all professions. Make sure you can live with them.</p>

<p>I would suggest that an aspiring engineering student seek out and speak with engineers of all age ranges...then make up your own mind. </p>

<p>Also understand that as you get older your priorities frequently change...</p>

<p>:)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad:Your post is full of flaws and hopefully won't deter anyone who really wants to go into engineering from not <a href="sic">i</a>* doing so. To whoever else is reading this, do your own research and don't rely on ill-informed posts like this one.</p>

<p>This 'ghost' seems to have some kind of ax to grind.

[/quote]
I hope you all got as much of a chuckle out of this reply as I did. Everyone should master this kind of inane comment; it lets you sound like you're bringing up valid objections without actually saying anything. Trot out a reply like this when you want to try brushing away someone's remarks without any evidence (google "ad-hominem attack" for further detail)</p>

<p>For example:

[quote]
coal miner: Don't make the mistake I did! The pay in the mines seemed high compared to what my buddies from HS were getting at the 7-11. But the job is dangerous! The mines are dirty and I'm getting this cough. The kids that stuck it out for a few years and went to college make a lot more than I do, too.</p>

<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad: Your post is full of flaws and hopefully won't deter anyone who really wants to go into coal mining from doing so. To whoever else is reading this, do your own research and don't rely on ill-informed posts like this one. This 'miner' seems to have some kind of axe to grind.

[/quote]
See how easy it is? Try this one at home or school ;)</p>

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<p>^ haha at the above post</p>

<p>i agree with this as well, my sister is at stanford and she wanted to go into engineering for three years...after an internship in japan, though, she realized that there are many, many very intelligent engineers and they receive low pay and get almost no recognition for their work</p>

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<p>Bull ****.
Michael Bloomber was an Electrical Engineer. Why the heck would anyone think that engineering will in anyway limit your future? Worst case scenario it will be as useful as a liberal art. </p>

<p>Go take your engineering degree and work in business, finance, go to law, medical, or business school.</p>

<p>I treat engineering as a liberal art. It opens your mind. Forces you to work on concrete problems. Look, scientists and engineers will build the world of tomorrow. The rest will sit around debating what it is exactly that the world of today was like. Choose who you want to be with.</p>

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<p>I'm planning to major in EECS @ Berkeley with a double major in Materials Science and Engineering once I reach junior year. I'll hopefully have EE, CS, and some chemistry up my sleeve once I graduate. I doubt that I'll have too much trouble finding a job if I continue to work hard. What I've heard is that while there is no shortage of engineers, there is a shortage of good ones.</p>

<p>I'm a computer kind of kid - what do you suggest I major in?</p>

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<p>Regarding low pay:
a) Engineer's usually have a bachelor's degree. So compare them with others who hold a bachelor's degree. If we were to take all those who had bachelor's degrees in engineering and all those who had bachelor's degree in liberal arts, which group do you think would have the higher pay? Remember, no MBA, JD, MD, or PhD involved. To say engineers have a low pay because you are comparing them with physicians and lawyers (who hold higher degrees) is rather stupid.</p>

<p>b) According to salary.com the 50th percentile salary for electrical engineers with 10 or more years of experience is $103,000. Now, a lot of CC'ers are upper class and don't consider that to be a lot of money but I (and probably most Americans) consider that to be rather nice income.</p>

<p>c) You can major in engineering and then go to a professional school and become something else. This is why the OP's argument that liberal arts majors will eventually overtake engineers in pay is weak. He/she is assuming that all liberal arts go on to earn professional degrees while all engineers stay as engineers.</p>

<p>d) Those engineers that move on to become project managers and VP's of engineering make quite a lot of money.</p>

<p>Also, would those that are agreeing with the OP please read through the thread on the old CC board (check my first post) before commenting here? I think he was quite thoroughly refuted there. He just keeps coming back because he's bitter about something and has an agenda.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Worst case scenario it will be as useful as a liberal art.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Good call!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Also, would those that are agreeing with the OP please read through the thread on the old CC board (check my first post) before commenting here? I think he was quite thoroughly refuted there. He just keeps coming back because he's bitter about something and has an agenda.

[/quote]
Knocking down silly straw-man arguments is just too much fun :D </p>

<p>How about if I use as my authority nothing other than our esteemed poster GShine_1989. Surely he can't object to that, no?</p>

<p>Just 4 months ago in May (5/21/06 -- do you need me to give the exact link, gshine, or do you want to pretend it doesn't exist?) he wrote a reply in a thread titled "Future of engineering in America"
[quote]
It is true that India churns out more engineering graduates than it needs and still doesn't produce enough quality engineers. For now, it is mostly low-end IT-related jobs that are moving. But the numbers are so large that there will still be very large numbers of U.S. engineering jobs moving there. Slowly, however, India is capturing high-end R&D jobs as well as well as jobs in non-engineering areas such as banking and accounting. Overall, I would say the majority of even IT jobs will stay in the U.S. as not every job can be done overseas. However, the U.S. engineering industries will be profoundly impacted and many American engineers will have to move to other fields if they want to remain employed.</p>

<p>In a few decades, Indian salaries will catch up with American salaries. And what's even better is that a developed India would have a billion+ potential consumers, providing large market for American products. But until then, many engineering jobs just won't be safe. How fortunate from me that I'm an Indian and I can move back... haha... uh... not that I don't sympathize with American engineers. :)

[/quote]
Let's see -- Very large numbers of jobs moving to India. US engineering will be profoundly impacted. Many American engineers will have to move to other fields to keep a job. In the decades until those 3-for-the-price-of-1 Indian engineers get salaries comparable to American ones "many engineering jobs just won't be safe". Kinda sounds like the stuff I'm warning you about, doesn't it?</p>

<p>And this is the guy who's posted twice telling you I'm all wrong ...</p>

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<p>can someone please answer my question back on the first page?</p>

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<p>I find the anecdotal evidence especially convincing.</p>

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<p>Marleys Ghost,</p>

<p>Majoring in engineering doesn't equal a career in engineering so lets get that straight. At my engineering school, the majority of engineering graduates go into finance or business-related fields, not engineering.</p>