Don't Major in Engineering!!

College Search & Selection
21

<p>
[quote]
Aurelius writes: Majoring in engineering doesn't equal a career in engineering so lets get that straight. At my engineering school, the majority of engineering graduates go into finance or business-related fields, not engineering.

[/quote]
Yeah, I believe that :confused: Can you post any published statistics, or are we just supposed to believe you?</p>

<p>Here ARE some real statistics anyone can check. Look at what Berkeley grads do with engineering majors at <a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/Major.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/Major.stm&lt;/a> and somehow you don't see "the majority go into finance or business-related fields". Look what Cornell grads do at <a href="http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/student-services/engineering-coop-career-services/statistics/Engineering-Post-Graduate-Survey-Results.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/student-services/engineering-coop-career-services/statistics/Engineering-Post-Graduate-Survey-Results.cfm&lt;/a> and it looks like the majority of engineering graduates are not in "finance or business-related fields". </p>

<p>Now either Aurelius attends a school better than Cal or Cornell, or his post is entirely made-up. I'm anxiously awaiting any verify-able link from Aurelius showing what he says is true, but I suspect I'll wait until you-know-what freezes over to see it ...</p>

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<p>This is a timely post. I am glad you didn't wait until mid October to start this thread like you did last year. My son is well rounded and has the math/science to major in engineering but also does very well and enjoys English and humanities. Many of your points are things I am already concerned about. Engineering programs do seem to be much more rigorous than the average liberal arts program. We just attended an engineering info session and it was emphasized that the rest of the university may start thinking about the weekend on Wednesday night, but not the engineering students. I want my son to have fun at college! I also want him to explore a wide variety of topics and courses (breadth) which probably will not be possible in an engineering program, unless he tries to double major outside of the engineering school. Didn't really consider the obvious male/female ratio issue which would likely be a major handicap for my son. Anyway, you definitely provided a lot of food for thought.</p>

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<p>Again, the key is that at worse, your engineering degree will be as useless as a liberal arts degree. Nobody says you have to do an engineering job after studying engineering. Some people like to study engineering because it is intellectually stimiulating. </p>

<p>If you were wondering about the data:
<a href="http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/seas/survey2005.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/seas/survey2005.pdf&lt;/a>
30% consulting
25% finance
18% Info Sys
14% Engineering</p>

<p>Having a large number of engineering grads not going into engineering is not necessarily better. Business is not necessarily better than engineering. It merely reflects the culture and style of the engineering school. If cornell or cal engineering were to have a heavy business influence, their data would look the same. But, the important thing is that an engineering major does not restricting you into going to any one career.</p>

<p>That leaves to your arguments that engineering impairs school life. However, Engineering is not the only cuirriculum that is rigorous. What about triple liberal arts majors. You might as well say not to triple major in physics-math-economics since it'll kill your fun in college. </p>

<p>Finally, regardless of the prospects of the engineering major, I also don't think engineering is necessarily a bad career at all.</p>

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<p>I am an engineering student and will give my insight based on my friends and myself.</p>

<p>1) We all got drunk and partied every weekend. Sounds lame, but we had a great time. Typical stupid college kids in that regard.
2) You are right; I do not like this part about engineering major.
3) I like big cities, so I do not care about this. Plus I am from Silicon Valley.
4) True, it is not really possible to bs your way through a college curriculum.
5) You are very right. I'll just have to meet girls elsewhere.
6) Don’t care!
7) Not everyone is hung up on money.
8) Well, then I will have to adapt.<br>
9) Not really true. My dad is an engineer major and he is management. O, and who says you can not get an mba.
10) Can’t say I have looked up this fact.</p>

<p>While I am an engineer major, and am certain it is what I want to do as an undergrad, although by no means sure am I sure I will be an engineer after I graduate. I will probably go for an MBA or Med School. Sure engineering is a harder route, but I will enjoy my education this way. I doubt I will graduate in four years; I do not want to keep my pace up. Instead I plan on spacing out my classes and taking philosophy classes because I enjoy the subject.</p>

<p>There is truth in what the OP said, but makes your own choice.</p>

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<p>My dear, bitter Marley, outsourcing is a fact of life in the era of globalization. Engineering isn't the only field affected. Ever heard of medical tourism? Or outsourced paralegal work?</p>

<p>Also, I see you conveniently decided to ignore some parts of my post. I clearly said that even the majority of IT jobs will stay within the U.S. and IT is the most prone to outsourcing (although you seem to think that IT is representative of all engineering fields). Second, globalization is a two way street. As India and China reform their economies and move away from socialism, their populations will become heavy consumers like the West. This new market will need goods and U.S. engineers will be there to design them. By the way, no comments on my post on engineering pay?</p>

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<p>It's all relative. I spent my working life in human services, social services, "social work" then got a clinical degree ( which got me paid about 12 K more a year, and never topped 30K a year) So lifetime earnings were the equivalent of a high school grad. My choice, those were the times to help humanity. I empathized so much that I got poor too! Part of me wished I had done a hard science or engineering or even medicine, then donated lots of cash to "social services" !!</p>

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<p>my reply the last time this was posted ....</p>

<hr>

<p>I was going to let this fly by ... but I can't </p>

<p>There are a bunch of interesting points in this "letter". </p>

<ul>
<li><p>It is true that engineering jobs tend to be geographically concentrated ... and that is true for lots of types of jobs such as consulting jobs, investment jobs, auto industry jobs, etc. There are job categories that are pretty geographic independent (teaching, nursing, doctor, lawyer, accoutant, etc) as long as you don't get too specialized. This is point to consider when considering careers (and engineering is far from alone with this issue) </p></li>
<li><p>Engineers do tend to have heavy work loads. In my experience liberal arts undergrads trying to get into top medical, law, b-school, and vet schools for example are working very hard also .. and they all (engineers and LA-types) have time to enjoy their social lives. For those focussed on achieving at the high end they seem to work harder than the average student whatever their major is. </p></li>
<li><p>Engineers are mostly male ... this one is true ... the percentage got a lot higher in the late 70s / early 80s but still is pretty heavily male. That is one reason I went to a bigger school with lots of different types of students. At work this is not as much as an issue (among other reasons ... a common piece of advice is to not date people who work close to you). </p></li>
<li><p>Lots of engineers are not from the US ... true, why is this bad? ... and in my opinion this is a huge pro ... the engineers you work with will be an interesting eclectic set of folks. </p></li>
<li><p>engineers do have to worry about layoffs but I'd be interested to know what profession the OP thinks does not have to worry about layoffs in the 21st century? </p></li>
<li><p>The coment on pay. If you become an engineer your pay will start relatively high and then, if you stay an engineer, flatten out relative to some other folks. That is true in virtually every other field also. Those other folks that catch the engineers are often continuing their development ... going back to b-school, going to law-school, starting their own business. Last time I checked that was not a disclaimer on a b-school or law school application saying engineering undergrad are not allowed to apply ... this same opportuniites exist for engineers. I think what does happen is a lot of engineers like what they are doing and solving problems and designing things and choose to stay in engineering and to not pursue other possibly higher paying paths. </p></li>
</ul>

<p>Punch line to the OP ... there are a couple nuggets in there about things to consider when deciding a major ... but it was, in my opinion, so over-the-top against engineering that it doesn't ring true.</p>

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<p>bumping this up for kids who were away on vacation for Labor Day and may have missed the post.</p>

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<p>Marleys_ghost, the entire thrust of your argument contains an implicit assumption which is that there is some alternative out there that is better to major in. But what is that? </p>

<p>Sure, I agree with you that engineers are going to be under pressure from foreign competition, specifically Indian competition. But so are many other jobs. For example, the Indian IT outsourcing industry gets lots of press. What gets less press, but is actually employing more Indians, is the Indian Business Process Outsourcing industry - basically, the outsourcing of bookkeeping, accounting, document processing, finance, helpdesks, callcenters, and all kinds of other business functions. I used to work at a company that recently laid off at least 75% of its accounting and bill-collections department, outsourcing that work to India. The only people they have left from that department are people who can interface between the other managers in the company and India. All of the numbers-crunching and rote manual work of entering data into forms, tracking down delinquent accounts, etc. - all of that work is now done in India. </p>

<p>So whether you're an engineer who has had his job outsourced to India, or you're an accountant who's had had job outsourced to India - what's the difference? Either way, your job is lost. So why do you harp on engineering specifically? </p>

<p>You also talk about the difficulty of engineering. But that is not a particularly specific criticism. Engineering is difficult because technical majors in general are difficult. At least with an engineering degree, you can get a relatively high paying job with just a bachelor's degree. Granted, you might be laid off later, but during all that time, you had a pretty decent paycheck. If you get a science/math degree, you can't even get that high-paying job (on average), and you ALSO had to work hard to get that degree. </p>

<p>Look, engineering is not the hardest major on campus. Physics is probably the hardest major on campus. Mathematics may be a close second. Physics/math majors have to work harder than engineers do, and end up with lower paying jobs. So if you really want to bang on a particular major, why not bang on those majors?</p>

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<p>


Thank you for clarifying. Your xenophobia was only subtle up to this point.</p>

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<p>To each his/her own, that's all I can say. </p>

<p>But to generalize from one's own bitter experience to a clarion call not to major in engineering is sheer sensationalism.</p>

<p>By all means, weigh the pros and cons when embarking on a career track. That goes for any profession.</p>

<p>Count me as one that has enjoyed engineering, both as an academic pursuit and as a career.</p>

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<p>hahaha I was waiting until sakky found this thread :D I totally agree with what he said.</p>

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<p>I've seen the H1B program in action, and I think there is basis for concern for a US employee. My former company used it to hire people they liked better, who happened to be foreigners who would work for the salary they wanted to pay. we turned down U.S. citizens who could have done the job, but we just thought the other guys were better. Also we undoubtedly could have gotten US citizens who were just as good, if we'd boosted compensation.</p>

<p>I think this program and its utilization should be carefully scrutinized. </p>

<p>The positions were not engineering positions though; they were MBA quantitative finance analysts.</p>

<p>I agree that many of the points raised in the inital post are legitimate points of concern, to be evaluated. I also agree that many other potential occupations also have many points of concern in their own right.</p>

<p>That doesn't necessarily make them all equally perilous or undesirable. One must investigate. Then make your best guess, given your aptitudes and interests.</p>

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<p>"Quote:
Originally Posted by marleys_ghost
And its communist China, BTW. </p>

<p>Thank you for clarifying. Your xenophobia was only subtle up to this point."</p>

<p>I believe he was using that to accentuate the fact that they were workers without a sense of entitlement.</p>

<p>Also, working within a largely foreign workforce is a concern to many people, it has nothing to do with xenophobia or racism... it's the same reason someone might not want to attend Reed because they are too moderate or conservative for it. It's the desire to be surrounded by people with your own values, experiences, ideas, etc.</p>

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<p>marleys_ghost,</p>

<p>
[quote]
And BTW many don't bother with soap or deodorant because that's the way things are back home.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LOL! Not all foreign countries (hence the people that live there) are dirty. Japan, Singapore, and Hong Kong make many cities here look trashy. ;)</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
I've seen the H1B program in action, and I think there is basis for concern for a US employee. My former company used it to hire people they liked better, who happened to be foreigners who would work for the salary they wanted to pay. we turned down U.S. citizens who could have done the job, but we just thought the other guys were better. Also we undoubtedly could have gotten US citizens who were just as good, if we'd boosted compensation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree that the H-1B visa program may be concerning. But you have to look at the issue holistically, and not just on its direct and immediate impacts on US worker compensation, but also on its impact on overall US economic growth. In fact, this is really a comment about free trade in general of which labor arbitrage is just one component. Free trade destroys individual jobs but it also creates greater economic growth, therefore creating more jobs in other areas. </p>

<p>Specifically, the H-1B visa program may reduce salaries in pure US engineering jobs. But that means that companies have more money to spend on other functions, like sales, business strategy, project management, marketing, and so forth. It also makes tech entrepreneurship easier because you need less money to start a company. For example, I know several Americans who have become successful small businessmen by starting software consulting companies where most of the heavy coding is done by Indian programmers. Without free access to labor, they probably would not be successful businessmen and so they'd still be stuck working for 'The Man'. </p>

<p>The point is, the H-1B program, and free trade in general, has destroyed some jobs while creating others. Hence, they need to be looked at holistically.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
We just attended an engineering info session and it was emphasized that the rest of the university may start thinking about the weekend on Wednesday night, but not the engineering students. I want my son to have fun at college!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>NJRes, I regret having to call you out on this, but I think right there is the crux of the problem. It's that attitude that is killing Americans. The truth is, sadly, a lot of Americans just don't really want to work hard. They're more interested in 'having fun'. </p>

<p>Look, I don't want to sound like a shrew, but you don't go to college to have fun. That's what vacations are for. You go to college to study. Sadly, a lot of American kids don't want to do that, and would rather just dilly-dally their way through school. I don't particularly blame the kids, because it's really American culture that encourages that sort of lackadaisical attitude. And then people wonder why foreigners are able to take Americans' jobs.</p>

<p>Look, you don't have the "right" to a job just because you're an American. You have to work hard just like everybody else. If you don't want to work hard, then you are going to be unemployed, and you deserve to be unemployed. Sorry to be so harsh, but, hey, it's true. American citizenship does not give you the right to be lazy.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
NJRes, I regret having to call you out on this, but I think right there is the crux of the problem. It's that attitude that is killing Americans. The truth is, sadly, a lot of Americans just don't really want to work hard. They're more interested in 'having fun'.

[/quote]
agreed ... along with the threads about how much free time students will have and the numerous threads questioning how easy schools grade ... and then, for me, the kicker the threads on making $100k right out of school. While I realize the same kids are not writing in all the threads the summation of the thoughts is ... not have to work hard, get great grades, and make huge bucks. </p>

<p>To me the real lost idea in here is to intellectually explore to find something that you LOVE to do. I spent a TON of hours on my school work as a junior and senior ... I didn't say "worked" and that was on purpose ... I spent a couple years hunting around and eventually found a major I had never heard of before I started college which I absolutely LOVED and I spent a ton of time on school work in my major because I wanted to. I spent way more time than required to get good grades in these courses not as a plan to get to grad school or to get a job but because I was intellectually compelled to challenge myself and understand the material as best I can. This compulsion eventually led to grad achool, bschool, and a solid management career but none of that was ever a master plan ... it was a career journey following my skills and interests and always moving towards what most interested me.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
As an engineer
1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.
2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to explore academic areas
3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.
4) the hours will be excessively long
5) you will be surrounded primarily by men at work
6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners
7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you
8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job
9) you're NOT going to get into management
10) the long-term outlook for engineers grows more dismal each year

[/quote]
</p>

<ol>
<li>You might miss out on some fun, but I wouldn't call it forsaking. In fact, I happen to live with two fourth-years in my dorm. They might be the most social people in the buidling. They bring all kinds of board games and video games, and go around door-to-door talking to people. One is a Chemical engineer and another is a mechanical engineer. Btw, one is an international but he gets along great with everyone.</li>
</ol>

<p>Sure, you might miss out on some fun, but it really depends on the person, and it's certainly not as if you won't have any fun at all. All the engineers I know are pretty friendly and have social lives. Sorry but a lot of studying is a prerequisite for college. I'm sure people who really don't want to study in college wouldn't consider engineering anyway.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>How is this different from other majors? If I major in biology or pre-med, I'll take mostly biology classes and I "miss the best chance I'll have to explore academic areas." You are probably familiar with all the chemistry/biology sequences that pre-meds have to go through. Same with many other majors. And being an engineer doesn't ban you from taking an art class, or a history class. You may have to take more required classes, but I think double-majoring probably requires a MORE rigid schedule, so why not complain about that?</p></li>
<li><p>I guess that's true to an extent, but first of all, why would people mind that? A majority of the population, at least, would probably prefer to work in urban areas than rural. Just look at the popularity of urban colleges as opposed to rural ones. Besides, MANY professions require that you work in major cities. After all, that's where most of the jobs can be found. I don't see how this is unique to engineering.</p></li>
<li><p>I think this would probably vary from job to job. Okay, the hours are a bit longer than some other jobs, but you are paid handsomely for them. Besides, there are many other professions that also require long hours. Physicians, for example, which you brought up in your posts. So after college you'll have to "prove" yourself by working long hours, you say? Well, let's take pre-laws. They are now in law school, working 60-70 hours per week on readings, and they aren't even getting paid for it! Same with Med students. Same with graduate students. Which looks better to you?</p></li>
<li><p>Seems more like a fact than a complaint to me. So there are mostly men...I think most people already know about this. But come on, you have a job to earn money and do something you enjoy, not to find a date.</p></li>
<li><p>Again, yes there are many foreigners, but I don't see why this is necessarily a bad thing. In fact some people like working with foreigners. It broadens their horizons and they get to see what other countries are developing.</p></li>
<li><p>Someone else already addressed this. Many engineers make 6-digit incomes, which is probably better than the vast majority of people who have a BA are earning. Sure a few of those may get substantially more, but most earn much less.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>8+9. This is assuming you are purely an engineer. Sometimes engineer students go into grad schools to study other fields. You can never be a manager? Tell that to MIT engineering students who later study at the Sloan School of Business, for example. </p>

<p>And if you really think this is a valid complaint, why not complain about football players? They have great salaries for a few years and then they usually don't play in the NFL again...ever. Now that's really a six-year career. At least engineers have a lifetime job. Besides, if you already start near the top, it's hard to climb up much farther.</p>

<ol>
<li>I'm not familiar with this aspect so I won't comment.</li>
</ol>

<p>To summarize, your post is exaggerated, overly-negative, nothing we don't already know, and is flawed in that many alternatives have the same problems, sometimes to a worse degree, and don't get the same benefits. 8 years out of college and your complaint is your salary tops out at say...$80,000? Compare your bank account of $50,000 x 8 = $400,000 to a med student who spent those 8 years in med school, and now is $200,000 in debt. Which situation looks better?</p>

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<p>For a truly well-thought out perspective, read online the NRC publication entitled "Rising Above The Gathering Storm: Energizing and Employing America for a Brighter Economic Future (2006)" at <a href="http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309100399/html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309100399/html&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>Here is one of the many recommendations:</p>

<p>Best and Brightest in Science and Engineering Higher Education:
Make the US the most attractive setting in which to study and perform research so that we can develop, recruit, and retain the best and brightest students, scientists, an engineers from within the US and throughout the world.</p>