<p>I work for an engineering firm and my salary is actually higher than quite a few US workers with the same years of experience and I haven't even worked all that hard. Those who say they can hire H1-B workers as "cheap labors" are simply overgeneralizing and don't know what they are really talking about. In order to have H1-B granted, the foreign workers need to be paid at/above prevailing wage, at least technically. Prevailing wage is basically what the labor department considers fair pay.</p>
<h1>1 is the worst excuse for a post I have ever read. 30 years in engineering and loving it.</h1>
<p>Basically I've witnessed that there are two categories of engineers.</p>
<p>1) Go to an "techie" engineering school like GaTech, Purdue, Illinois, etc and get a B.S. in engineering. Then work for Boeing, Bosch, GM, whatever as an actual engineer. These are the jobs the OP is referring to. My personal experience has shown me that the most successful engineers in this category moved into management as actual engineering salary does plateau south of $100K.</p>
<p>2) Go to a top 5 engineering school or Ivy-caliber school. Major in engineering but don't actually become an engineer. Go to professional school (mostly med school business) or get a job in consulting or investment banking. Make a million a year, but remember that you didn't need to major in engineering to pursue this path.</p>
<p>"Those who say they can hire H1-B workers as "cheap labors" are simply overgeneralizing and don't know what they are really talking about. In order to have H1-B granted, the foreign workers need to be paid at/above prevailing wage, at least technically. Prevailing wage is basically what the labor department considers fair pay."</p>
<p>With all due respect, regarding post #33, I think actually I do know what I'm talking about. For a certain level of compensation we were offering, certain H1-B workers were deemed to be "better". However we could have hired others at that salary instead. We deliberately didn't recruit at certain schools, where some talent even better than our H1B candidates may have been, because we didn't think our package, including compensation, would be appealing there, and we were unwilling to pay more. These are facts pertaining to the situation I was involved in.</p>
<p>For our case, for the given capability level the H1B guys were actually cheap labor. If the H1B pool wasn't there we would have either hired available Americans at the same price, or, if they didn't work out as well, paid higher salaries and recruited at better schools.</p>
<p>I would think the thing to remember is to study Engineering if you like it, but don't consider it the end of your education. The biggest problem with engineering (as well as math/physics) majors is that the courseload is far more difficult than the typical liberal arts major, so your GPA can easily be affected and hurt your chances at moving onto a top-notch grad school which will get you a better-paying, longer-lasting career.</p>
<p>When I was in high school many, many, many years ago, I knew that I wanted to be an engineer. I went to Georgia Tech, studied almost around the clock, made worse grades than HS, and attended classes Monday through Saturday morning and some night labs as well. I was a co-op student, which meant that I got to see up close what life would be like for me after graduation. It took me almost 2 years, but when I changed majors (to Physics), my life changed. I changed co-op jobs to the environmental science field, I had time to take part in extra-curricular activities, I got involved in politics and civil rights, and on and on.... I still look around me today and never regretted my decision. </p>
<p>I do realize, however, that some people are made for engineering from the start. If you're one of those, go for it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
1) Go to an "techie" engineering school like GaTech, Purdue, Illinois, etc and get a B.S. in engineering. Then work for Boeing, Bosch, GM, whatever as an actual engineer. These are the jobs the OP is referring to. My personal experience has shown me that the most successful engineers in this category moved into management as actual engineering salary does plateau south of $100K.
[/quote]
Wrong again. You know nothing about today's salary structures and the demand for experienced engineers.</p>
<p>"Wrong again. You know nothing about today's salary structures and the demand for experienced engineers."</p>
<p>Anything to support your statement?</p>
<p>Perhaps I'm off by 30-40K? The point is that 28yr old MBAs are making close to what top engineers make or more (120K), and have years of salary growth ahead. The engineers who succeed end up transitioning into business, after all that work they'd have been better off in a non-engineering major. Engineers, particularly mechanical engineers are in slow growing industries requiring large amounts of capital infrastructure, so there's little entrepreneurial opportunity and skills are commoditized. Computer engineers are an exception, if they're smart and realize that they hold the key to technology, after a few years a computer engineer can leverage their knowledge into a start-up.</p>
<p>I still want to know what several people have asked (and which is implicit in the OP's complaint about engineering -- that there is something better to major in):</p>
<p>If you are an engineering type kid, WHAT ARE YOUR OTHER, BETTER CHOICES FOR A MAJOR???</p>
<p>I would major in math or economics, but only if I were at a top 25 USNEWS school.</p>
<p>So, what would you major in if you weren't at a "top 25?"</p>
<p>Computer science.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I would major in math or economics, but only if I were at a top 25 USNEWS school
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Computer science.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Slipper1234, now I think you've gone off the rails. You say that people shouldn't major in engineering because of the hard work, because, as you say, those who are successful transition to business and thus shouldn't have put in all of that hard work anyway. I don't necessarily agree with this, but let's put that aside.</p>
<p>THEN, you say that people should major in math, economics, or computer science. THAT is where your logic breaks. Because the fact is, these majors are ALSO difficult and ALSO require a lot of hard work. Especially math (in terms of the special insight you need to do well), and computer science (because of the extreme tedious debugging you inevitably end up doing).</p>
<p>I would especially highlight your suggestion of the math major. Math is hard. Unless you have that certain kind of mindset in which math proofs come easy to you, math is going to be hard for you. Furthermore, there really isn't that much you can do with just a bachelor's degree in math. At least an engineer can get a pretty decent job as an engineer with just a bachelor's degree. But a math major? He has fewer options. For example, you complain that the ME's are stuck in a slow-growth field with large capital expenditure requirements. Sure. But at least they have a field. What kind of 'field' do math majors have? </p>
<p>And don't come back to me with something like consulting or banking. Sure, math majors can do that. But so can engineers. As has been stated here on this thread, you don't have to work as an engineer just because you have an engineering degree. Plenty of engineers take jobs as bankers or consultants. In fact, it's become something of a running joke at MIT that the best engineering students won't work as engineers, but will instead end up at Mckinsey or Goldman Sachs. </p>
<p>So the way I see it is, you basically have 2 options in college - to either work hard, or not to work hard. If you are going to work hard, you might as well get a degree in something that can actually land you a decent job right after undergrad, like engineering (or CS). If you're not going to work hard, then you should major in something like Leisure Studies or American Studies or Peace and Conflict Studies or any one of these either creampuff majors where you don't have to do much at all.</p>
<p>moneydad,</p>
<p>That's how your firm operates but not mine. In fact, my firm would love to save the trouble of all the paperwork pertaining H1B and PERM..etc. but they couldn't find enough US citizens applying. When I did my PERM application, I ran an ad twice and 90% of the resumes came from foreigners!</p>
<p>But the H1B pool is there, so employers would have to take that into account in order to recruit the best man/woman for the job at hand, not just in terms of financial outlay, but also job aptitude/attitude, diversity and many other considerations that may vary from firm to firm, location to location, etc.</p>
<p>It's true that H1B petitions have become tougher and the wait is longer after 2001. That the annual H1B allotment is depleted early in each season is testimony that the international talent pool continues to be favored by US employers, though understandably more so in the academia.</p>
<p>The recently launched PERM process, a prelude to permanent resident petitions, is a further check to ensure that indeed a fair pay and employment regime prevails.</p>
<p>"job aptitude/attitude, diversity and many other considerations that may vary from firm to firm, location to location, etc."</p>
<p>This reminded me: these H1-B employees, who happened to all be Asian, were counted by my firm as minorities in its reported minority employment numbers. It seems obvious to me that minority hiring targets were not established for the purpose of hiring foreign workers for finite periods. So the real, domestic minorities who are not being hired, since the targets intended for them are being met by hiring these other people, are also being hurt.</p>
<p>Regarding changes in the program after 2001:my experience with this was 1999-2000; the current state of affairs may well be different.</p>
<p>I don't think Econ is comparable in difficulty to engineering or math. I dunno about computer science.</p>
<p>If your goal in life is to get rich... don't major in engineering. On the other hand, if you're picking your career based on your earnings potential, I would think you're not thinking right. Is engineering going to be easy? No, but some people enjoy the challenge- it's what they've always wanted to do, so why should they shy away from engineering because it's "hard"?</p>
<p>This thread is a wealth of ideas and info for HS students deeming passage to move on. I would invite students to look into thread " Consultant Core Schools" to gather info on the stream. The latter thread appears to suggest that you choose to be in a respectable college and get the best in A MAJOR out of the college. The best in measurable numeral like GPA, as in non-numeral like student leadership out-of-class activity. Inside college, you are fine insofar as you attain recognition from your professors and your peers. Get college training on your way along the four year education. There you learn the way of life in supposition within the "domain" of a college. Outside college in the workforce you face the real challenge.</p>
<p>I came to a major of study because I had past learning and got inspired in the major. I started off from HS with a six-year MD program, switched to economics/statistics while rising sophomore. Ten yeras later I accomplished more than friends in medical professions. Former classmates pursued engineering, two out of ten in the group made respectable accomplishment in engineering profession. The other eight in the group made average progress in their career life. This evidences the notion in life such that people naturally learn to survive in the universe of challenges surrounding them. The fact that challenges keep changing, in magnitude and direction, makes it complicating for young people to cope with it. Speaking from experience a well-rounded education will serve a young college graduate better than a professional like engineering degree from college. </p>
<p>To HS students contemplating a college major, I would suggest you take up one that fits your (1) POTENTIAL proficiency - subjects that you find comfortable working with, (2) job prospect - anticipating your stand-point in the job search position four year from now. Engineering might fit math/sci kids in classes, but it does not necessarily put math/sci kids in the best attainable position in the job ladders. If you can learn humanities comingling with engineering in four to five years, then it is best for you. The key to college success is that you hold on to the subject area that you can get the best out of it. Career success is the aftermath, subject to your capability and luck. There's no foolproof that college engineering is overtaxing, nor undergraduate business is supporting, life after college. Evidences show college graduates in a meaningful major/concentration with spectacular resume always get fast track careers. Do what best fit you. This requires you to know yourself.</p>