"Don't make the same mistake I did."

<p>I'm old. I was a law student at Stanford over 25 years ago, and my sister was an undergraduate there at the same time. So -- roughly contemporaneous with this guy.</p>

<p>If any of you have read previous posts of mine, you will know that I can be critical of some aspects of Stanford's undergraduate program during that period, and suspicious that some of the flaws survive to this day (although their importance is much reduced by the fact that the student body is much stronger).</p>

<p>But I can say with confidence that the author of this piece is completely screwed up, and you shouldn't worry about it at all. I knew plenty of undergraduates and recent graduates there. I hung out in the English Department some; I dated a senior woman (who had taken time off and was older than I) for a while; I had classes with undergraduates in them; many of my friends in law school had gone there as undergrads, and of course there was my sister and her friends (and her boyfriend at the time was an engineering student). What I saw at Stanford was, yes, a crummy advising system, and a culture in which students and faculty were not forced to interact with one another much -- and in which many of the students liked it that way. But, as a result, any student who WANTED close relationships with and personal attention from faculty just had to ask nicely. The faculty members I knew were more than happy to mentor undergraduates, they just wanted some effort, respect, and enthusiasm from them, and they wanted to be asked. There was no question that Stanford was a great university at that point, and students who were willing to be a little aggressive and self-starting got all the benefit they wanted out of it.</p>

<p>It's true that the faculty saw themselves as researchers first and teachers second. That is true at every research university. If you want faculty whose primary commitment is to teaching, go to a LAC, a third-tier public, or a community college. The basic proposition about research universities is that good students can learn best from cutting-edge scholars; they don't need to be coddled and catered to all the time. So, yes, your professor has more important, interesting things to do than stroking your ego. But, in return, you get to hang out with people who are doing really important, interesting things. Lots of them. When you figure out how to insert yourself into the flow, it's heady and exciting. If you don't think that sounds exciting, look for some other kind of college.</p>

<p>Same thing with graduate students. Graduate students in strong programs (which most of Stanford's are) can be stunningly great, and they provide a wonderful bridge between undergraduates and the senior faculty. Graduate students understand the mistakes you are making better, because they were making the same mistakes recently. Graduate students help you get up to speed so you can actually understand why this or that professor is so incredibly cool. Graduate TAs I had when I was an undergraduate (at a college equivalent to Stanford, at least) went on to become department chairs at Harvard, Yale, and Michigan, and a famous TV producer/writer. Some of them were doubtless better teachers a decade or so after I knew them, but they were really smart, really interesting, and of course completely accessible people. </p>

<p>Again, if that doesn't sound like a good deal to you, then you should be re-examining your interest in an elite research university. Because that's what an elite research university is all about. The whiny author of the OP screed obviously never got that.</p>

<p>yeah stanford is a pretty crappy school.</p>

<p>All I have to say is -- this whole mania about "little undergraduate focus" dominates too many discussions. Guys, when you're in college, quite a few of you will not <em>care</em> if a TA grades your papers, because he/she can do it just as well as the professor, without wasting the professor's time. The professors at Stanford are likely gods + stars of their field, and quite frequently, are more qualified than any of you good students will be. If you want a more undergraduate-focused school, go to a smaller school. Stanford and Harvard are world-class institutions because of the students' + faculty's accomplishments, not because they offer the most personal, undergraduate-focused experience. Go to schools like these if you're a go-getter, not if you want tons of undergraduate focus. The opportunities are boundless, but are for those who look for them.</p>

<p>EDIT: Yes, Cornell or Berkeley fits great in the same boat. All of these are not schools you go to for the most personal education, you go because the resources are amazing, the students are amazing, and in the case of a school like Stanford, the students form a very diversely accomplished crowd as well. You have to pick what fits you best.</p>

<p>“Stanford and the Ivies have been churning out investment bankers and professionals who work in the finance industry and they mis-predicted this entire financial situation”</p>

<p>They churn out a lot more than that.</p>

<p>“they’re part of the complex combination of reasons as to why we are in this mess right now.”</p>

<p>And they’re part of the complex solutions that are being proposed. You can’t make generalizations like that–it doesn’t make sense.</p>

<p>“she said that although the atmosphere, weather, and social life is awesome, the teachers there are not that great.”</p>

<p>Doubt it. And there are tons and tons more people who would disagree. (There’s plenty of empirical evidence to the contrary–try ratemyprofs, courserank, etc.)</p>

<p>“There are so many better schools out there that need to be discovered”</p>

<p>There are many other great schools out there, possibly as good as HYPS, but to say “better” is a bit far.</p>

<p>“For example, Rice offers 91 classes with only one student… that is hard to beat.”</p>

<p>That’s what Stanford calls independent study, and there are a helluva lot more than 91 students doing that.</p>

<p>Just another sour grape…</p>

<p>"I’m looking to go to the best UNDERGRADUATE school possible. "</p>

<p>That’s your problem. There isn’t any single “best” undergraduate school. Once you get over that, you can really pick which best fits you.</p>

<p>“And abrasive responses like phantasmagorics, which ignore the big picture, sound so… “Harvard” that it’s unsettling.”</p>

<p>Point out where it’s “abrasive.” I was responding to brash and unfounded criticisms levied against Stanford–criticisms that most would disagree with. How that’s “abrasive,” I don’t know.</p>

<p>Also, how am I “ignoring the big picture”? I’d say I have a much better perspective than you do on the matter–I too had to go through a similar decision to make, and am quite happy with my choice.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>supereagle,</p>

<p>The big deal is hearing this intense level of criticism of Stanford for the first time (at least in my case). I’ve always heard the praise, with very little negativity, and this review was entirely negative and filled with a lot of hate. I appreciate it in a way because it has brought me back to reality - not even Stanford is perfect. Its just not quite as terrible as this review makes it out to be.</p>

<p>And as a prospective student yourself, supereagle, I’m surprised how quickly you’re able to write it off as just “a bunch of horrible things.” A lot of what he says is based on fact. It just gives another often ignored perspective on undergraduate education at Stanford, even if it’s painfully biased.</p>

<p>I also think people like myself came to the conclusion that because it’s a smaller school when compared to some of the behemoth public unis, there is a lot more personal attention involved in the teaching. But it’s simply not that way, and I understand this now. I’m glad you already have such a good handle on Stanford.</p>

<p>I’m not writing anything off. Much of what he says is probably true, i just dont care. i want to go to stanford to learn, have fun, and get a degree. i dont care what successful people may or may not have went there in the past. I also dont care if its " undergraduate focused" or not. i dont care if getting an undergrad degree there will not land me a top paying job for life out the gate( nobody should believe that).A school is a school and it doesnt need to be paradise to get out with a degree and a good experience in four years.</p>

<p>Yale has graduate students to teach undergrad courses, per the admission officer I met. The lower level courses at Stanford, say math 51-53, are taught by PostDocs. That is also the difference between Stanford and whole lot of other schools, such as Michigan. Princeton is the only school I know that every course is taught by the professor.</p>

<p>Take from this what you will, but my AP Psychology teacher has a signed picture of Philip Zimbardo in her room, given to her by a former student who attended Stanford and took one of Zimbardo’s classes. He wrote a sweet little note telling her to send more kids like that student to Stanford for him. We’re a normal, suburban public school.</p>

<p>I think the level of availability probably varies among professors, but in general the drive of the student is most key. Prominent professors are people, and even though many brilliant adults may not have the patience to indulge the concerns of every eighteen-year-old, most will be receptive to meeting another individual with genuine intellect and insight, even if that individual just happens to be younger. Even if they may perhaps stereotype all students initially as immature and dull-minded, a genuinely bright student will always have the opportunity to prove himself otherwise in some way.</p>

<p>I guess that’s where we differ. I care about the quality of learning for undergraduates and my future job prospects right out of the gate (nobody said anything about top-paying). I don’t just want “a degree,” I want a degree that will provide me with the best opportunities. I need to think at least a little beyond college.</p>

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<p>Cool, thanks for the enlightenment. Then you can put your 200k wherever you want, based on as much or as little information as you want. </p>

<p>I agree with aberdeen.</p>

<p>Well tyler brings up a good point. i’m basically paying nothing in tuition outside of my student contribution. If I was paying alot in tuition, I wouldnt bother going to a school that cost as much as 200K because its a big waste. So just to clear that up, I wouldnt bother with “top schools” like stanford if i actually had to pay the price tag. </p>

<p>aberdeen, i also care about my job prospects. And do u know what I am most likely to get a good job offer with? A degree that has the name HYPS on it. Will I? who knows, that depends. But without a doubt a degree from HYP or an “ivy type” school is the best u can do because of the name. Its respected and at the very least it proves u can bust ur ass. Thats the entire issue. people actually think that something magical happens at these schools. then when they find out its just reading books and taking tests for the most part they’re like " huh, i was expecting MORE!?" Well,no. Its just a school where u learn exactly the same things as u would anywhere else. And it looks good on paper and feels good to say " I went to ( insert name here)"</p>

<p>“A lot of what he says is based on fact.”</p>

<p>But so much of it isn’t based on fact. It’s outdated, presumptuous, or just plain wrong.</p>

<p>“because it’s a smaller school when compared to some of the behemoth public unis, there is a lot more personal attention involved in the teaching. But it’s simply not that way”</p>

<p>It is, though. You honestly don’t think it’s more personal at Stanford than at a huge public? If I have time, I’ll detail my own personal situation and why I think there is much more personal attention at Stanford.</p>

<p>^ I agree with Phantasmargoric on this point. To add onto what he/she said, Stanford’s also a lot smaller than many of the ivies and their peers as well. UPenn, Columbia, Cornell and of course Harvard all come to mind. In all honesty, other than a LAC or a LAC-ish university like Dartmouth, Stanford’s probably got one of the best faculty-undergrad contact out there. I mean, if it sucked as badly as this guy claims it does then wouldn’t there be more of an uproar about it? Considering that Stanford students are consistantly ranked at the top of happiest students lists and most people who have gone loved it there, this can’t really be a major issue. </p>

<p>But I must admit, the OPs post does scare me on some level.</p>

<p>one guy Hippo724, its just one guy who went there over 20 years ago. There are thousands who liked the school, and u let one guy scare u? wow, people are SO easily shaken. And for the record, u can find something similar to this( one guy complaining about everything) for every school out there, from harvard to west tennesse state.</p>

<p>the majority of the article is the guy naming a bunch of people who didnt go to stanford. i dont understand why that matters.</p>

<p>^Well that’s why I qualified that statement with “on some level.” I mean, rationally speaking I know it’s ludicrous and I still love Stanford. But once a thought has been expressed it can’t be unthought and it’ll linger there in the back of your mind or in your unconscious. It’s sort of like a “what if…”</p>

<p>I think also what it is, is that these are general concerns about Stanford people tend to have a lot and often times people are reassuring, telling prospective students that its really ok. So, when this guy came in and completely bashed the school based on issues people have concerned themselves with a lot, it definitely hits a nerve…</p>

<p>I just checked “The Best 368 Colleges - 2009 Edition.” That’s The Princeton Reviews’s book. Stanford students give their professors a 95% rating for “professors interesting” and an 86% for “professors accessible.” Those are both very high ratings. And only 5% of classes are taught by TAs.</p>

<p>Yea I thought Stanford in general had nice profs. Hmm…</p>

<p>But then again not every univ is perfect.</p>

<p>I don’t understand why the opinions of a student who attended Stanford twenty years ago should be considered to have ANY bearing on today. </p>

<p>Things change over time, and giving weight to the original poster’s criticisms is a lot like (this is a pretty random probably flawed example) learning about current US foreign policy from a random state department official from the reagan administration.</p>

<p>Essentially, regardless of whether the complaints were valid twenty years ago they are more or less irrelevant today</p>

<p>

key phrase: “a lot”
I also said it’s painfully biased.</p>

<p>

Maybe it’s slightly better, but I based my statement on what I gathered from the general consensus of this thread, or so I thought - that Stanford is a “medium to large research university” with “similar institutional problems” to other research universities when it comes to undergraduate teaching. I agree, it must be at least a bit more personal…</p>

<p>

Once again, that’s the point. There are thousands who liked the school, and that point of view is pretty much the only one you ever hear. This guy sticks with you because he’s so different, because his words are in complete dissonance with the majority of everything you hear about Stanford. Like hippo said, it hits a nerve, because the OP is so resolute in his negative opinions.</p>

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Well, would you have made the same comments if this guy gave nothing but complements? Don’t we learn from the past? I understand things change over time, but the fundamentals of education at a university change veerry sloowwly in most cases.</p>