Don't send your daughter to Brown

Colleges and Universities A-Z Brown University
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<p>WasatchWriter: “To me this can only mean that you think somewhere else is safer. If your point is something else, I suggest choosing your titles more carefully.”</p>

<p>Response: I would suggest reading the post before you make sarcastic posts about a serious subject. If you had, you would have known the answer.</p>

<p>WasatchWriter:</p>

<p>“Show me where I or anyone else has said this. Making inferences like that in a public forum is simply irresponsible.”</p>

<p>Response: You implied that when you added, “For all we know, it’s the college that never gets into the news that tramples individual rights the most egregiously.” </p>

<p>The only reason I can see for adding this statement is to imply that other schools may be worse, so this is not so bad. Once again, the attitude seems to be that rape is not a serious offense.</p>

<p>Fenwaypark:</p>

<p>When I said “University” in this case, I meant the Administration not the students, parents and faculty. Students, parents and faculty are unhappy and rightfully so. </p>

<p>The Administration is responsible for overruling the committee finding. The administration talks in circles, but fails to take action. The administration can make any decision that it chooses. They choose to protect the individual that their own process found guilty at the expense of the victim. They choose to appear sympathetic yet continue to allow this person back on campus, and hope it all just blows over. Typically administrators are betting that people like you will defend them and act as enablers. Then before long we will be back here in a similar situation. Why doesn’t the University President come out of hiding and say this decision is not acceptable instead of sending out her minions?</p>

<p>This is an opportunity to tell the administration that the constituents of one of the world’s most important and respected Universities expect them to do the right thing or resign and let someone else do it. </p>

<p>Do you agree that the Administration has not reached the correct decision in finding this student guilty and then allowing a person found guilty of 4 counts of sexual misconduct to return so quickly to campus? If so, and you are so knowledgeable, what do you think it takes to get the University to do the right thing? Maybe you have a better idea. If you think it is the correct decision, can you please tell me why?</p>

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<p>The alleged perpetrator was found ‘responsible,’ not ‘guilty’ of four offenses. He was not found to have committed a violent rape – at least based on anything public. The offenses included underage drinking, actions that “can result in or can be reasonably expected to result in physical harm,” and two offenses of “sexual misconduct.” One of those offenses includes penetration OR violent physical force OR injury. We know that there was penetration, so it is not clear that the hearing board found violent force. As to risk of physical harm, the only document that has been disclosed refers to the perpetrators ‘arm on’ the victim’s neck, which suggests that the hearing board did not find any intentional strangulation. Sexual misconduct itself includes MANY things that are not rape (legally speaking, but may fit your own definition). So, to assume that the actual hearing board findings were that a violent rape took place is taking a huge leap. It is inconceivable that the perpetrator did not tell a diametrically opposed story to the victim and the findings of responsibility, in and of themselves, establish nothing about what actually was found to have happened. Notably, for whatever reason, the victim only shared the denial of her appeal, not the appeal itself or the hearing board decision, so the opinion of the original poster is based on many, many knee jerk assumptions or based on her (?) own confirmation bias. Unless you know what the actual findings were, it is pretty hard to judge the sanction. I am not excusing Brown or the perpetrator here – I am just saying that, with the limited information available, it’s very hard to form an informed opinion. </p>

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<p>Bonenz:
Most of your points seem reasonable. I agree that we have limited information, however, based on the information that is available, this decision is very troubling. I don’t think it is adequate to say that therefore, this behavior should be allowed to continue. </p>

<p>What can students, parents and alumni do to change this behavior and make it clear that protecting a defendants right over the victims rights is not acceptable. </p>

<p>I still do not understand why using a polygraph in a case like this is not a good solution. If he passes then his name is cleared and he can return to campus. Why is that not a good solution? I understand that t is not admissible in a court, but this is not a court.</p>

<p>How do you recommend that these situations could be handled by the University to better protect students from being victimized, and reduce the frequency of these all too common incidents?</p>

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<p>I am not privy to the evidence, so I do not know if I would agree with the findings, or if I did, with the penalty. The standard of proof was “preponderance of the evidence”, not the criminal standard of “beyond a reasonable doubt”.</p>

<p>In a situation of one person’s word against another, you start out at 50:50, so anything can tip the balance. If this was a 51:49 case, the penalty could have been justified. Of course, the evidence also could have been lopsided in favor of the accuser. In which case the penalty could be seen as too lenient.</p>

<p>But I don’t know. Why are you asking me to evaluate non-public evidence? Does it really help you form an opinion to ask a person with no knowledge of relevant facts to draw conclusions based on those unknown facts? I do not know if you usually form opinions this way, or if it this a one-off.</p>

<p>I think what is happening now at Brown is exactly what will get to a desirable result. Discussion, peaceful protest, acknowledgement of the issues by the Dean of Admission and others. That’s all in the public domain and are things any of us can…fairly…comment on.</p>

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<p>Far as I can tell, you are the only person who has strung the bolded words together in connection with this situation. Certainly no one affiliated with Brown has stated, suggested, or hinted this. Can’t comment on what could be your motivation for posting things like this on College Confidential</p>

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<p>@Much2Learn: Agreed that it is very troubling. </p>

<p>You still, in your post, make assumptions about what “this behavior” consisted of. And, keep in mind, that is based upon a limited release from an interested party. I neither share nor reject those assumptions at this point, but of course you are free to your own opinion and to believe what you want.</p>

<p>Brown has a very strict code of conduct and orientation week includes very frank and forceful discussion of what is and what is not acceptable. No system is perfect, and the real crux of this seems to be in how discipline is administered, both in terms of timing and in terms of meting out punishment where violations are found.</p>

<p>Polygraphs are not that accurate, in my opinion. I don’t know enough about it to say whether it is a good idea or a bad idea to require them (if they could even be required), but it’s an interesting idea you raise.</p>

<p>As others have said, this is a national problem and I don’t have any good solutions. However, with all due respect, I don’t think on this record, ‘not sending our daughters to Brown’ would be a good solution. Certainly if someone had two equal choices, in their mind, and accepted (which I don’t) that Brown mishandled this, they might not come to Brown. But that is a much smaller class than every ‘daughter’ that got into Brown. For that matter, if it’s a matter of principle, then maybe people should not send their sons either. If it’s a matter of safety, I don’t think that anything in this whole story suggests that Brown is any more or less safe than any other place or that any Brown policy or procedure caused or contributed to the event. </p>

<p>I do respect your passion and I assume that it is motivated by your own sense of justice. If only the world was as black and white as your original post seems to assume, it would be so much easier to judge things and take positions. Unfortunately, the world, at least my world, offers only shades of grey.</p>

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<p>@Much2learn‌</p>

<p>I spend time now and then (maybe too much time) perusing the Ivy forum. You have posted that your daughter is currently choosing between two Ivy League schools, neither of which is Brown. I have nothing but admiration for both those schools your daughter is considering, and I do not think your daughter can go wrong whichever way she decides.</p>

<p>Both of those schools have had issues somewhat similar to what Brown is experiencing at this time. I think each school is being conscientious in dealing with their respective situations.</p>

<p>My question to you is why would you come on the Brown page to advise people not to send their daughters to Brown, while you haven’t posted similar admonitions on the pages of two Ivy schools your daughter is considering?</p>

<p>What distinguishes the Brown situation from those at the other two schools, and impelled you to come here? There are easily searchable citations to the issues at the other two schools but I hope we don’t get into that.</p>

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<p>I side with Brown on this matter.</p>

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<p>Fenway:
I am saying that by failing to enforce significant punishments, the message is sent that this behavior is tolerated and then it happens again. </p>

<p>Bonenz:
I agree that we do not know the details of this case. However, what we do know in aggregate is that these cases rarely result in a significant consequence for the boy involved. The message that sends allows the behavior to continue more frequently in the future. I think those two points are black and white. </p>

<p>What I can’t understand is how this scenario plays out over and over again, but no significant action results and then it happens again. It is also troubling to me that the administration did not state that it believes that the conclusion of “responsible” on the 4 counts was incorrect. I would be more comfortable if senior administrators were reducing the sentence because they are convinced that the boy is innocent. Failure to say that gives the impression that they think he is guilty but that what he did is no worse than cheating on a test. I find that troubling. </p>

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<p>To be fair, a similar thread should be started about not sending your daughters to Barnard or Columbia, based on the Title IX sexual assault complaint filed in federal court by 23 students:</p>

<p>The 100-page complaint alleges that the University allows accused perpetrators of sexual assault to remain on campus, has too-lenient sanctions for perpetrators, discourages victims from reporting assault and denies accommodations to students with mental health disabilities (which they say result from their attacks). The students also claim that LGBTQ students are discriminated against in advising, counseling and Greek Life.</p>

<p>ALL students, male and female, need to be educated to speak up about sexual assault. Too often the cultures are still stuck in the old days “blame the victim” mode.</p>

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<p>That’s hooey. Neither you nor I knows whether the punishment fit the malfeasance or not.</p>

<p>So, why don’t you answer my question. The two Ivy schools your daughter is considering…according to your posts on CC…have had similar situations in recent years. Why aren’t you going on those forums and telling parents not to send their daughters to those schools?</p>

<p>More pointedly, why are you about to send your own daughter to one of those schools?</p>

<p>PS: To be clear, I have nothing negative to say about those other two schools, and in fact I have admiration for those schools. I think they have handled their situations conscientiously.</p>

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<p>Fenway Park:
Again, this is a current issue. It just happened.</p>

<p>It is hard for me to understand your question about why I would care about rapes that happen at other schools. You must see the world differently than I do. The reason is that behavior at one institution impacts all of them. When one of them does the right thing, they all move in that direction. </p>

<p>I want all of these institutions to start taking real actions that show that they take women’s issues, sexual assault and rape seriously, and stop winking like it is a joke. </p>

<p>What is hard for me to understand is people who are more concerned that people are talking about what is happening on campus and how it was handled than they are about what is actually happening and how that can change to benefit the community in the future. </p>

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<p>Because…according to your posts on CC…you are about to send your own daughter to one of those other schools.</p>

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<p>Back up. You have to understand what regulations exist and what limitations to them, on campuses. We’ve had these threads before about a number of prominent U’s. Inigo mentioned Title IX- that’s where you start (and its Dear Colleague letters.) And one should try to read the conduct policies and the procedures any school has in place. The schools have to respond, by law. But many of these cases are not clear, evidence is unclear or there are initial delays in reporting. The schools are also charged with fair process for both sides. And, with few exceptions, what we learn through the media, is not the full info reviewed. Also, where she’s quoted saying it would be “safer” to handle this through the U than through the local police is, I think, the wrong word to use. </p>

<p>What’s important, of course, is that this is a terrible situation. </p>

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<p>Much2Learn: “Failure to say that gives the impression that they think he is guilty”</p>

<p>Guilty of what? You ‘fill in the blanks’ with absolutely no factual basis. You assume this incident fits some pattern you have in mind. This is exactly what confirmation bias is – you start with your preconceived notion and then you ‘confirm’ it by interpreting everything that you see as consistent. You have no idea what the evidence was or the ‘facts’ that were found by the Board, yet insist that a rapist got off easy. I can’t join in that lynch mob mentality. You MAY be right, but won’t even acknowledge that you may not. You do, indeed, have much to learn, it seems to me. I sincerely hope your daughter has a wonderful experience in college. Mine goes to Brown and she is very troubled by the current situation but, at least, when I made the same points as I initially made to you, she realized that the situation is more complex than you are willing to concede.</p>

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<p>Fenway park: This is a thread about what happened at this school this week. </p>

<p>I support efforts to ensure that the other schools are also working to improve the environment for women and everyone on campus. If you post about a specific situation I would support you. However, since you can’t understand why anyone would care about an event that did not impact them immediately, I doubt that you will do that. </p>

<p>I am not aware of a similar incident at the school I am sending my daughter this fall. However, if you are suggesting that I in some way dislike Brown, and my response would be less if it were at her school you are dead wrong. I did not respond to your question initially because I did not want to reroute the thread from discussing what just happened this week. This thread is not about you or me. It is about trying to encourage administrators to do the right thing and creating a better environment for everyone. </p>

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<p>Living near Duke, it’s understandable to me that college administrators need to act cautiously when the scenario is not clear-cut. Duke officials thought they were doing the right thing with how they reacted in the lacrosse case. Especially once three players were charged and indicted. And in the end, the players were declared innocent and the DA was forced out of his job. But the young men who were wrongly accused and whose names were reported over and over again on national news will never be the same again. Situations like this are incredibly painful for all involved, and in so many cases the real truth never does come out. Solomon would struggle to decide how to handle some of these cases.</p>

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<p>The Clery Reports for each campus show numbers of incidents of different sorts that were reported. Mandated by law. In some cases, you can also find how cases were resolved or concluded. Be informed. And teach her to be savvy. </p>

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<p>A simple Google search that includes the names of the two schools, one of which you are about to send your daughter to…if your posts on CC are accurate… should be enlightening for you. After you read what pops up, maybe you can explain why you think parents shouldn’t send their daughters to Brown, but it is fine for you to send your daughter to either of the other two schools.</p>

<p>EDIT: the suggestion by @lookingforward is more scientific and would very likely be more objective than mine</p>

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<p>I will be happy to read about what happened at the other schools, and I appreciate that information. </p>

<p>What I would like to know from you Fenwaypark, is do you agree that in aggregate, how these types of cases are handled is a problem, or are you just trying to distract from the issue I am concerned about?</p>

<p>If you agree that how these complaints are handled is a problem, why don’t you propose a better way to approach it, and perhaps I will agree. I think that would be more productive than just disagreeing or trying to reroute the discussion. </p>