<p>I'm not too familiar with how the situation works, but if you are staying on the wailist at certain schools, you would probably accept a place at another college even if it's not your clear-cut first choice. This means paying the deposit and binding yourself to guaranteeing your enrollment by signing on the line. However, if you get off the wailist at your first choice, and decide to go there, wouldn't you be violating that agreement? How does this work out?</p>
<p>Schools expect some "bleed" due to waitlist acceptances. This is NOT double-depositing. The normal, acceptable procedure is like this: you send in a deposit to one school by the deadline. After May 1, schools look at their yields to see whether they have any open spots. If they do, they contact students off the list to tell them that they have been accepted. At this point, the student is required to make a decision (I've heard that they are given anywhere from 24 hours to a week). If they accept the waitlist acceptance, then they must immediately send a deposit AND withdraw from the first school. This more or less simultaneous acceptance/withdrawal ensures that no student has more than one spot reserved at a college. In the case of double-depositing, a student reserves two spots for himself for a prolonged time. </p>
<p>So . . . double depositing means two schools believe at the same time that you will enroll, while a waitlist acceptance after a deposit has been made at another school merely shifts that intention. While both practices prevent a college from filling a spot off the waitlist, they are philosophically different. In one, the student misrepresents his situation ("I intend to enroll . . . ") and in the other, a change in circumstances allows him to revise his plans. I'm a little surprised that many CCers don't seem to see, or care about, the difference.</p>
<p>I think at this point it is important to remember the exact wording of the title of this thread - double depositing is NOT a good idea. An elegant and simple statement that ought to be taken at at face value for what it is - sound advice to help guide us through the labrynth of the college admissions process.</p>
<p>No matter which way you twist, turn, bend, staple and fold it, double-depositing is, as Calmom succinctly put it, selfish. Ancedotal problems of lack of room accommodation etc. are certainly motive for valid complaint and swift action, however, it is most likely a problem related to yield rather than double-depositing. </p>
<p>I suggest that anyone in need of a refresher course in yield, as well as the intricacies of waitlisting etc. should look up Byerly's posts. You will get an education and a half.</p>
<p>"No matter which way you twist, turn, bend, staple and fold it, double-depositing is, as Calmom succinctly put it, selfish. Ancedotal problems of lack of room accommodation etc. are certainly motive for valid complaint and swift action, however, it is most likely a problem related to yield rather than double-depositing"</p>
<p>Completely agree with this.</p>
<p><em>Age of Entitlement</em></p>
<p>I guess I'm still too Midwestern in my values. As a result, I missed the signs that said we have entered an "Age of Entitlement" in college admissions. As I read this thread I was struck by the people - albeit only a few - who believed they were entitled to "game" the colleges because the colleges were being unfair in their admission standards or policies. What lessons are you teaching your kids when you do this?</p>
<p>I just wanted to voice a big "Thank You" to all of the voices of reason on this thread.</p>
<p>NewMassDad wrote:</p>
<br>
<p>Actually, colleges do this! </p>
<p>That's why they sometimes end up bunking kids in dorm lounges, for example.</p>
<p>That's why a few elites, in years past, have practically begged kids to defer for a semester or year. </p>
<br> [QUOTE=""]
<blockquote> <blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Ironically, one of the reasons for this is double depositing. As you like to point out NewMassDad, colleges are businesses and to run efficiently they must be sure they have enough customers to fill their seats. But when students double deposit with the idea of "making up their minds later" colleges can no longer be certain of the numbers who will actually show up in the fall. </p>
<p>Therefore, double depositing is one of the reasons why they are forced to accept more students and put more students on waitlists to protect themselves from having empty seats. And, in some cases, that leads to housing shortages and other problems related to over-enrollment. Of course, they could admit FEWER applicants to begin with but then, because of double depositing, they might end up not filling the class, which ultimately also has a negative effect on their ability to provide services to students.</p>
<p>So, yes, double depositing affects more than just the kids on the waitlist - it makes it harder for schools to predict their final yield, and thus more likely to end up with too many freshmen next year or not enough freshmen to run efficiently and solvently. </p>
<p>While you and others would like to believe that double depositing doesn't affect anyone at all, or is just in response to the actions of colleges, the truth is, double depositing ultimately DOES affect the very people you cry so loudly about protecting: the students who ultimately enroll.</p>
<p>And, I'd like to address the issue of "fairness" in college admissions that you and others seem to like to point out as a reason for it being OK for students to do whatever they please. Since you seem to want credentials before believing anyone who disagrees with you, let me say that I have personally interviewed many admissions directors and counselors, I have also researched the admissions process inside and out, and I have taken Master's level classes on college admissions while working towards my credential in college counseling. I do not claim to be an expert, butit is a safe bet that I have spent more time studying the college admissions process than most people. </p>
<p>I believe that the vast majority of college admissions departments really do try to be fair and honest with students and they also adhere to professional standards designed to protect students in the process (after all, they are the ones that voluntarily set up and agree to adhere the NACAC professional standards governing their actions that you so belittle). In return, they expect students - and their parents - to try to be fair and honest with them. Doesn't seem like a faustian bargain to me, but then again, I don't look at college admissions as something to be gamed or as an entitlement, but as something to be understood and appreciated for the ultimate good it provides to millions of students every year.</p>
<p>I do want to clarify my last comment about admissions providing "ultimate good to millions of students every year" so that I am not criticized by those who might mis-understand my point.</p>
<p>What I mean is that I appreciate the college admissions process for working as well as it does in spite of the complexities of handling millions of applications each year. As I have said before, there are obviously cases where individuals feel they have not been treated fairly, but in the whole, I believe that the process works very well and treats the vast majority of students fairly. If you are concerned with the inequities of the system, they do not lie in requiring students to make up their minds by May 1, but in some students and parents having more assets for and less ethical concerns about trying to game the system than others. The resulting sense of entitlement is where most of the perceived unfairness truly lies.</p>
<p>This is a great discussion, and gets to the core of one of ethical issues surrounding the college admissions and financial aid process.</p>
<p>Is college admissions an adversarial process where one is bound only by the letter of any document signed? If you believe this, then anything not actually illegal or grossly unethical is fair game in order to get into the best school (whatever that means) at the best price.</p>
<p>Or is college admissions a cooperative process, conducted in good faith by two parties whose word can be trusted implicitly without reference to fine print?</p>
<p>Different people will approach the process from different viewpoints, and hence will come down on different sides of this issue. (Similar issues apply to financial aid philosophy.)</p>
<p>(Just like airlines, colleges do "overbook" by estimating the yield of paying customers. If their guess is wrong on the high side, they take standby passengers, er, waitlisted applicants. If their guess too low, schools don't give out flight vouchers and free meals - they put four students in a triple or, if the student is lucky, bump him to first class by renting off-campus overflow apartments.)</p>
<p>Roger, I would never tell any student not to consult the fine print. That is why I frequently tell students in my college admissions blog to know their rights and responsibilities, and to understand how they affect them. But, you can not ask for "rights" unless you are willing to accept "responsibilities." </p>
<p>And, in the case of double depositing, most schools make it clear that sending in a deposit is an intent to attend and that double depositing is cause for an admissions offer to be rescinded. (See Pomona's statement in this thread). This does not mean that you can't change your mind over the summer --- but it does mean that you can not honestly have "an intent to attend" two different colleges. In my mind this is no different than someone applying ED and then continuing to apply to other schools just to see what other offers they might get. You either ARE going to attend a college or you ARE NOT. </p>
<p>As I have said from the beginning, if you honestly need more time to make up your mind, or are awaiting financial aid information, your option is to call the colleges involved and ask for an extension. If you have personal problems that make it hard to commit to attend a school in the fall, you also have the option of deferring your start date. Colleges are pretty darn understanding about legitimate requests for extensions and deferrals. But they are understandably not going to give you forever to make up your mind at your convenience.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is college admissions an adversarial process where one is bound only by the letter of any document signed? If you believe this, then anything not actually illegal or grossly unethical is fair game in order to get into the best school (whatever that means) at the best price.</p>
<p>Or is college admissions a cooperative process, conducted in good faith by two parties whose word can be trusted implicitly without reference to fine print?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Roger, I think you delineate the two mindsets pretty well. For me, I've always tried to approach life from the second one, unless proved wrong by experience (for instance, the present US administration.;)) But absent egregious wrongdoing, I like to assume that people are, for the most part, doing their best. I find that this is beneficial for me in two ways: first, I find that assuming people are trying their darndest makes them more likely to. And second, I have found that assuming there is good will in others, makes me a happier person. Those who see the world as a constant war where they have to beat others before others beat them strike me, on the whole, as angry, sad people. Who by their actions, unfortunately for all of us, feed the processes which they claim to abhor, since they have eschewed the path of acting out of good will.</p>
<p>Garland, your wonderful post brings up another point. These forums are not designed to tell anyone what the correct action to take is, therefore, taking advice given by anyone here needs to be put into your own context of ethics and acceptable behavior. I'd also add that incorrect information sometimes gets passed around this community as undisputed fact. So, no one should ever take information given here at face value without doing your own research to verify its accuracy. :)</p>
<p>The last two words of Garland's post resonated deeply - good will. The college application process is essentially a microcosm of society and like it or not we are all bound by explicit and implicit rules of behavior. Call these rules ethics, morals or simply socialization.</p>
<p>There will always be people who believe that rules exist to be broken and advocate a dog-eat-dog approach to life. I do believe, however, that most people have a strong sense of personal integrity and want one basic rule to prevail - Do Unto Others.</p>
<p>Carolyn, as you have said many times, knowledge is power.</p>
<p>As Roger has recognized this discussion gets to the core issues.</p>
<p>Is this system 'cooperative or adversial'.</p>
<p>I believe that in too many cases it is adversial! Why?</p>
<p>Some examples: </p>
<p>a) You attend a school in the local area of a college, they either take everyone, put a limit or seek diversity away from the local area. In each case, the school is making an arbitiary decision that does not address the student as an individual.</p>
<p>b) The school wants a balanced gender mix, you are a girl and they have 56% females in their student body, so your GPA/Scores/etc are equal or even slightly better than a male applicant. He gets accepted and you are rejected/waitlisted.</p>
<p>c) You are one of six students from the same high school applying to a college, they decided that they only want to accept three students from your high school. You are competing (w/o your knowledge) against 5 fellow students for three slots regardless of the rest of the applicants from other schools.</p>
<p>d/e/f) you want a scholarship, you are compared and judged solely against the other scholars, athletes, music/art applicants for a limited number of scholarships, the colleges selects based on their needs, not on your qualities.</p>
<p>I am not saying that any of the above is right or wrong, just that it is not 'cooperative' in any sense of the word. The colleges have created a system that works to their benefit and if I were in control of a college or university - I would probably like that fact that the system works (in the main) to my school's benefit. </p>
<p>Naturally, in many instances the colleges are competing with each other (witness the financial aid comparisons) for these students. The May 1 date is not established for the students, it is for the colleges.</p>
<p>Now, I grant that the students in large measure benefit from this created system and that pehaps there is no other system that would work as well for the greater number, BUT, it is a system created by the colleges (NACAC) for their needs and to address their problems.</p>
<p>The students and their parents who research the colleges, do their homework and understand this system do quite well in most cases, but the student who does not have the benefit of aware parents, interested and knowledgeable GC's and enters into this system expecting fair and impartial treatment is a 'babe in the woods' and the woods is not a friendly place.</p>
<p>As for depending on "Good Will" and the kindness of others expecting that people will be "doing their best", that is a recipe for disappointment and lost opportunities.</p>
<p>I am not one to quote religious references, but I will make any exception in this case. If you wish to do so, then I suggest the phrase and thought that "God helps those, who help themselves", rather then depending on "Do unto others...."</p>
<p>This system is filled with college created misinformation, lack of current information, slanted information, information generated by colleges to put their school in the best possible light without regard to the fact that this type of duplicity could and often does mislead students and give them a complete false or partially false impression of that school.</p>
<p>Examples abound in the areas of financial aid, profiles, availability of courses, Greek life impacts, and in so many areas of information.</p>
<p>Aware parents and knowledgeable GC's can wade through and get to the relative truth, but the average student and family do not and in many cases can not learn until it is too late.</p>
<p>How many of us when we look at a college created brochure believe each and every bit of information contained therein? How many of us can instantly locate 'questionable facts and arquable data' in that or any brochure from any institution.</p>
<p>This system is set up for the colleges, not the student and that is why most of us are on this site and reading these posts because we know that we can not and should not depend on the colleges for all the information to give our children the 'best ' possible start.</p>
<p>Megan--I'm wondering what religious reference you are quoting, with "God helps those who help themselves." I'm pretty sure it's not in the Bible, but maybe another scripture.</p>
<p>Be that as it may, you sound like someone who feels ill-used by the college admission system. I think that as long as there are more students who want to go to the same colleges than there are places for them, you're going to have all the situations you described above. In each case, you are upset that the school will only take a subset of whatever the group of students in that category is applying. Hard to see how it can be otherwise without infinite resources, classrooms, dorms, etc. But the fortunate thing is, there are enough great schools in the country, that everyone who wants to can attend somewhere, with choices as to what that somewhere can be.</p>
<p>In the spirit of good will and cooperation, please allow me to understand exactly what part of the college admission process you are talking about Meganvirg. Let's say, for the spirit of debate, that your S or D hit the golden CC jackpot and received admissions offers from Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford. Add a few elite LACs into the mix. May 1 rolls around. What do you suggest your S or D do? It is SO difficult to decide between Cambridge and Princeton and then again the weather in Palo Alto can't be beat. Do you send in acceptance cards to more than one school and then just sit on it - maybe you can clone your child and have him or her attend more than one institution or do you sit down with your child- cum- adult and decide which school he or she wishes to attend - based on financial aid received or not received, academic fit and a host of other criteria.</p>
<p>Last time I looked, I haven't seen many babes in the woods around these here parts. The college admissions process is competitive (although believe it or not, not everyone will or will even want to attend a top tier school). The debate under discussion on this thread is not how colleges and universities select their prospective admits but what WE do once we have those coveted admission tickets in our hot little hands.</p>
<p>Oh, and if the Golden Rule has too much of a Biblical connotation for you, try this one: two wrongs don't make a right.</p>
<p>For the record, and to return to one of the scenarios that started this thread, I wanted to let you all know that just TODAY, my son received his updated financial aid offer from one of his top choice colleges--school A. He had been trying to decide between two schools and financial aid was a big factor we were considering. Since we were not going to have all the required financial information on the table by May 1, my S had gotten an decision extension at both colleges. School A had refused to fax or e-mail us the details of their revised package, but gave us a general idea of what they would be and said the information would be coming in the mail. Consequently, it would have been a little difficult to negotiate with school B without a written offer in hand, and school B only gave him an extension to decide until Friday, May 5 anyway by which time we hadn't received A's offer. Had we wanted to hold out to obtain the best package possible, we could have double-accepted. We didn't do that but I can certainly understand why a student might be sorely tempted.</p>
<p>Garland and Asterikea;</p>
<p>This is a discussion of the issues and not a personal contest as to whom is wrong or right. As for me personally, the system that exists has served my children quite nicely over the past 26 years.</p>
<p>I and my W have researched, visited, met with and counseled with many fine Adcom and our children (5 graduates and one new freshman) have accumulated three full tuition scholarship for four years at Lafayette (2) and Washington Univ in St Louis (1). Others have received decent aid packages at Allegheny, St Olaf and Denison.</p>
<p>The discussion is not about how the system has treated me and mine, but how it is constructed and where the benefits of the system are slanted towards the colleges and not towards the students.</p>
<p>Roger identified clearly that the issues are core. The arbitiary May 1 date is imposed and agreement is mandated by the colleges. The students are captive in this system and have few options.</p>
<p>The members of CC are better informed (in many cases) than most parents. That is not the question posed, the question posed was the validity of 'double depositing'.</p>
<p>Now it is claimed that the student has responsibilities and should act accordingly. I have agreed that if the student does 'double deposit' he/she is risking both acceptances. I have also agreed that she/he should ask for delays from both schools. But , I am dealing with the question, if both schools are not agreeable, does the student have the option of 'double depositing' and is that option 'immoral and/or unethical'.</p>
<p>IMO, it is neither, it is a risk because the system is established and run for the benefit of the college who is all powerful and not for the student.</p>
<p>The example given earlier in this posts centered around waiting for information re financial aid from one school and May 1 is looming or passing.</p>
<p>Loading a question by placing the responsibility on the student for mucking up the system and causing Waitlisted student trauma and delay is just not right IMO.</p>
<p>Posing the blame on 'rich persons' and comparing holding accept ances from two or three Ivies is 'scapegoating'.</p>
<p>The probably person in this situation is some student trying to compare financial aid from smaller LAC's or other institutions and the local or state university and the paper work is late or incomplete from either or both, with the probability that visiting the schools personally to clarify is not practically or financially viable.</p>
<p>Placing blame in a 'moral or ethical' plane on to a 17/18 year old and/or her/his uninformed and worried parents is just so unfair and unreasonable IMO.</p>
<p>So there is no hidden agenda or unresolved anger at the Adcom's or schools in my case, but the mere fact that since 1980, my children have been able to cross the 'mine field' of college misinformation to arrive at excellent schools with multiple acceptances and successful outcomes both in the process and in college should not cause me to ignore the truth of the entire process.</p>
<p>It is IMO a sad commentary that this discussion waste time on seeking to unravel hidden agendas especially where none exist.</p>
<p>BTW, never have any of my children even came close to 'double depositing'. This is not a personal issue, but it is an issue that does impact some students.</p>
<p>Meganvirg, I do apologize; I had misread your anger. But as I understand this thread, everyone seems to have allowed tht in the case of a financial aid paperwork issue, it's okay to contact the school for an extension, and lots of people here seemed to have done so.</p>
<p>YOu may feel that the issues of how this all affects other students are ancillary to the question. Others feel it is the question itself. It's just a different way of looking at the world--again, I agree that Roger described that viewpoint very well.</p>