Double Depositing is NOT a good idea

Parents Forum
101

<p>To TheGFG -- Since this thread was started by Carolyn without reference to a specific case, I'm not sure that others (besides you) see it as an issue necessarily tied to late financial aid awards. I do want to say that if you did your part -- i.e., submit your FAFSA, tax returns & any requested early on or as soon as requested -- then School A. has not been fair with you. This is the type of extenuating circumstance that could justify a double deposit with School B. I hope it has now worked out for you.</p>

<p>However, I'd also like to say that this situation happened to us - we were specifically invited to double deposit and chose not to, out of fairness to our College B. By the time spring rolled around in 2000, my son had a very clear first choice college and had already done an overnight at his College A. That college notified him in late March that he had been accepted and that they found him eligible for need-based financial aid, but that their financial aid budget for the year was exhausted and they could not offer anything beyond a $2600 Stafford loan. When we got the non-award letter, I called the admissions & financial aid offices and I also faxed them an offer from a competing college that had promised a $15K grant. The staff confirmed that IF they had financial aid funds, they would meet my son's need with an equivalent grant - but reiterated that they did not have the money. They then offered to put my son on a "wait list" for financial aid.</p>

<p>When I pointed out our need to meet the May 1st deadline, the admissions office suggested that we double deposit, and further made the offer to refund our deposit in the event financial aid did not come through.</p>

<p>My son then flew out east to visit his 2nd choice college for the first time, accepted their offer, and chose to attend there. As much as he had wanted College A, from our perspective they were acting unfairly and suggesting that we engage in what we felt would be unethical conduct.... and also holding up the decision process indefinitely.... since the financial aid "waitlist" could as easily be news arriving in August as in May. Rather than let that college continue to hijack the process, we moved on and dealt with the colleges that seemed to us to be more about good faith and mutual respect. </p>

<p>Sometimes one's sense of personal integrity means making choices that entail an opportunity cost, or a lost benefit. To me, it was simply a matter that my son had seven other colleges to choose from that had all dealt with him in good faith and made timely offers of financial aid; and one college that didn't want to play by the rules. We dropped that one from our list. </p>

<p>Again, I do hope things have worked out for you, and I do think that delayed financial aid is one of those areas which make it difficult for the family. Your son did the right thing by asking for an extension from School B. rather than double depositing. School A's misconduct is no excuse for misleading School B. </p>

<p>I would note that there is a difference between the goal of wanting extended time to see the award from School A.... and wanting to hold open the opportunity to negotiate for more aid from School B once School A's offer is in hand. I think that the first scenario is one that you are entitled to -- but the second really isn't. Yes, we all like to negotiate for the best bargain -- but that isn't a right, and at some point the negotiations need to stop. School B. acted in good faith and they were entitled to have a decision by the deadline - if their award was insufficient, you could have been appealing the award or negotiating with them in the interim, even if you didn't have a competing award in hand. </p>

<p>By the way, as of May 1st this year there were 2 colleges that still had not provided financial aid offers to my daughter. As they were not her top choices, we did not follow up with them -- so I don't know whether a little nagging would have done the trick. But I was disappointed the late delivery of many financial aid award letters this year. We did not have that problem with my son 5 years ago - even the school that offered the financial aid "waitlist" had given us their preliminary "out of funds" offer well in advance of the April 1st notification date.</p>

102

<p>I agree with Carolyn's suggestion in post 36 only I would move the date in the opposite direction. One of the things that many colleges are doing is sending out a large number of "early write" letters to the highly desired candidates in their pool. So, these schools know well before the April 1 date of who they will accept. I would suggest changing the "national acceptance" date from April 1 to March 15 . . . the Ides of March.</p>

<p>Though fairly amusing it does seem appropriate.</p>

103

<p>Let me complete the thought because much of the discussion is based upon financial aid. I am sure all of you have noticed the cross over dates between when your tax return is due and when each college needs your financial aid information so they can send you your FA with your acceptance. This is a pain for all of us but it would only be worse if it had to be done 2 weeks earlier.</p>

<p>Unless of course the schools asked you to submit your previous year's financial information and they can give you a conditional FA award subject to your completed FA information for the current year. They do this already for those students that apply EA or ED, why not extend it to everyone.</p>

<p>BTW, I never got why the schools need you to apply for FA during the EA/ED process . . . particularly if they are "need blind" in their admissions. Clearly a topic for another thread.</p>

104

<p>
[quote]
the admissions office suggested that we double deposit,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Interesting. So even the adcoms know of, and recommend this tool!</p>

<p>Regarding Roger's dichotomy:</p>

<p>I never felt the system was adverserial until I spoke to a researcher at Harvard's School of Public Health a few years ago about his research on alcohol use and abuse at colleges. He's been allowed to collect data at a number of well known universities around the country, but only on the condition that he not publish, or otherwise make publicly available, any data etc. for any specific campus. In other words, he could only publish aggregate data. At the same time, he shares the campus specific results with that campus. He told me he wished he could publish specifics, but he can't.</p>

<p>If colleges were truly interested in helping parents make an educated choice, (the "cooperative" approach), then why would they hide such valuable information.</p>

<p>BTW, there are other examples of this hiding of relevant information (for example, the NSSE!)</p>

<p>If you still think of the process as cooperative, fine. We disagree.</p>

105

<p>
[quote]
I'm not sure that others (besides you) see it as an issue necessarily tied to late financial aid awards. I do want to say that if you did your part -- i.e., submit your FAFSA, tax returns & any requested early on or as soon as requested -- then School A. has not been fair with you. This is the type of extenuating circumstance that could justify a double deposit with School B. I hope it has now worked out for you.</p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The way I read the situation was...</p>

<p>Student got admitted to school A and School B. School A was first choice, but school B was the more financially feasible option (better package)</p>

<p>Had a package from school A. </p>

<p>School B gave a better package. </p>

<p>Requested a FA review from school A in order to meet school B's package.</p>

<p>School A was sending revised package snail mail.</p>

<p>Could not go back to school B for in hopes of them increasing their original offer based on the word of school A (needed letter).</p>

<p>now that the 5th has come and gone, hopefully everything has worked out or another extension was granted.</p>

106

<p>
[quote]
Interesting. So even the adcoms know of, and recommend this tool!

[/quote]
ONLY the college that was playing games about financial aid recommended this -- that was to their advantage and the detriment of the other colleges. The certainly did NOT offer to work things out with other colleges, or reimburse our deposits there, and they did NOT advise that we be honest and disclose the situation to the other colleges. </p>

<p>As noted, we wouldn't play along - obviously the first college would have complete control of whether or not they decided to extend financial aid, and essentially they were asking us to make a deposit for a form of waitlist status -- clearly to their benefit, as they could decide whether or not funds would become available, with the worst case for them being that a needy applicant turned into a full-pay applicant in order to secure the spot. </p>

<p>Looked to me more like an attempt to extract money from a student who was not a high priority admit, and I wondered at the time how many other students were screwed around in that manner. </p>

<p>I don't doubt that some colleges engage in unscrupulous business practices -- that doesn't justify my acting the same way. We chose to deal honestly with the other colleges that dealt fairly and honestly with us.</p>

107

<p>
[quote]
The way I read the situation was...</p>

<p>Student got admitted to school A and School B. School A was first choice, but school B was the more financially feasible option (better package)</p>

<p>Had a package from school A.</p>

<p>School B gave a better package.</p>

<p>Requested a FA review from school A in order to meet school B's package.</p>

<p>School A was sending revised package snail mail.</p>

<p>Could not go back to school B for in hopes of them increasing their original offer based on the word of school A (needed letter).

[/quote]
Sybbie, if you are correct, then I really have a slightly different take. I think that School A communicated where its true priorities lay when they were slow to act on the financial aid appeal. School B was being very generous to extend the deadline under such circumstances. </p>

<p>I have to say that I'd personally be very reluctant to work with School A and would have little trust as to financial aid in future years under the circumstances. My d. was in a similar sitution with NYU - she met with a financial aid rep on a Sunday, they promised an answer by phone and by email within 2 days, and she did in fact have the answer to her by Tuesday. Being NYU, it wasn't enough - but there certainly was very prompt handling of the situation.</p>

<p>Anyway... I don't know what the outcome was, but I do know that sometimes in a negotiating process you see the true colors of the person or agency you are dealing with and that can make a difference as well. Years ago we were shopping local auto dealers trying to get the best deal on a new Honda Civic -- one dealer offered a cutthroat price but played a lot of games and substantially misrepresented some aspect of what was included in the price. The conversation ended with my husband & I walking off the lot, with my then 3-year-old son shouting loudly in front of all the other customers "You LIED to US!!!" as we departed. We drove to another dealer who was more forthright and paid $500 more for the same model car; within 6 months our other car broke down and I called back the 2nd, honest dealer, who sold us a 2nd Honda Civic at a discount, "fleet rate", which he could offer us because of the time frame of the 2nd purchase.</p>

108

<p>Actually, my understanding, after talking with TheGFC through PM last week was that they had received financial aid offers from BOTH schools in a timely manner. He had a clear first choice school which had not been willing to negotiate, so they were hoping that the second choice school's final offer, which they had been able to negotiate a bit, would make the first choice school more willing to negotiate. Attending the second choice school wasn't really on the table - he was going to go for the first choice school no matter what, but a little leniency on the loans would have been nice. (Forgive me TheGFC if I mis-understood.) </p>

<p>I was able to give theGFC some data on how both schools tended to handle FA awards in subsequent years which she indicated to me allowed her son to make a final choice (for his first choice school). Perhaps, however, he has changed his mind again. I did have a lot of sympathy for theGFC's situation: making the decision to chalk up higher loans in order to attend a preferred school is a difficult one. But, would double depositing really solved that question for them? I doubt it. </p>

<p>I do agree that the process has holes and problems, especially where financial aid is concerned -- but we need to really understand each individual case before recommending any course of action. Sometimes what seems like a clear cut case on the surface may not be when you start asking questions. (And I am not referring to theGFCs case or any other specific case, just speaking in generalities about offering "advice" without the full story)</p>

109

<p>Here is what she said in original post on this thread -- as you can see, she was talking about "revised" offers, not "first" offers:</p>

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110

<p>Well I don't want to comment on a specific case I know nothing about, so my comment here is ment as a general statement, not as any judgment on what happened with TheGFG. </p>

<p>My personal opinion is that it is NOT appropriate to double-deposit as a way to extend time for negotiating financial aid by essentially entering in a counterbidding war. I know that it is a legit. negotiating strategy, but that doesn't mean that the colleges have an obligation to extend out their respective deadlines in order to allow more haggling. </p>

<p>I think that people are forgetting that financial aid is an act of grace from the colleges -- no college is obligated to provide students with a particular financial aid package. Also, there is nothing to stop a person from continuing to work with a financial aid office after making a deposit if they have a bona fide issue or concern. </p>

<p>Yes it is frustrating when the financial aid award is not as nice as we would like.... but ultimately you have to make a choice. The system we have in place is that the choice needs to be made by May 1st.</p>

111

<p>Well, Calmom, you do bring up a point I've been wondering about. For the folks who think double depositing is OK - for whatever reason - how long exactly do you think double depositers should get to make up their minds and/or keep negotiating with more than one college? Should they have until the end of May so they can continue to compare financial aid offers? The end of August so they can make additional visits? Or, maybe they should be allowed to start classes at both schools so they can get make a truly "fair" assessment of the differences between the two schools?</p>

<p>The bottomline is that the college admissions process requires all parties to make decisions based on the information available. That means that college admissions offices <em>sometimes</em> have to make judgements based on the limited information in the application in a timely manner, even though it may be difficult or not appear "fair". And, it also means that students and parents <em>sometimes</em> have to make timely decisions with less than perfect certainty, even though it may be difficult or not appear "fair."</p>

<p>In short, the decisions in college admissions are sort of like most of life. There are no guarantees, and sometimes you just have to choose one path even though it means letting go of another.</p>

112

<p>Calmom et al, I won't bore everyone again with the details of our A school / B school situation, esp. since it was discussed elsewhere on CC. Neither school acted dishonorably IMO, though we surmised that the school which did not want to fax or e-mail their revised offer quickly were suspecting it would be used to negotiate with another school. Since they would have been correct in their assumption, we don't blame them for trying to protect their interests.</p>

<p>By the same token, what exactly are the student and parental rights in the admissions process and where are these rights delineated? S just received simple response cards as far as I know. I don't recall seeing anything resembling a contract.</p>

<p>While I don't want to reprise the lack-of-transparency-in-financial-aid thread, I do think that given the high cost of college the customer should have some rights as far as learning the school's bottom line price by bargaining a bit. Now if the FAFSA EFC were always accurately predictive, and if both College A and College B used the FAFSA and both claimed to meet 100% need, then they would come up with near identical aid packages and this would not be an issue. The exact cost would be clear from the start, would have been the same for either school, and it would simply be a matter of which product we preferred. But it has been a lot like buying a car--the sticker price means nothing. Except in the case of college shopping we're not really supposed to haggle or tell the dealer the guy down the street is giving us a better deal. Calmom says: "Yes, we all like to negotiate for the best bargain -- but that isn't a right, and at some point the negotiations need to stop." Seems to me the customer is really at a disadvantage then.</p>

<p>Bumped. Did not see the previous few posts, as they were written while I was writing this one. Sybbie is correct. A month to go back and forth with multiple schools which are miles and miles away is not enough time.</p>

113

<p>It IS a competitive market in a capitalistic system. </p>

<p>It IS like haggling over car prices.</p>

<p>And just like any other purchases, the prices are not going to be the same, and you have to make choices. I see it as more analogous to buying plane tickets -- I know I'm not getting the same price as others, and I know that whichever I choose I will get too my destination, but it is likely that the cheapest airfares will correspond to the most inconvient and least comfortable of my options, though I might get lucky. </p>

<p>It would be nice if colleges all agreed to meet 100% need as defined by the FAFSA EFC, but they don't -- and it makes no sense to me that anyone would expect that they will. I don't expect all houses to cost the same, or all cars to cost the same, or every brand of spaghetti at the supermarket to be priced the same. I don't expect that anything in my life will be priced based on my ability to pay. I assume, to the contrary, that things will be priced based on what the market will bear. I know that most of the time I will pay more for choices that are qualitatively better, less for things that are qualitatively worse -- and the amount that I am willing to pay may be influenced by my perception of quality .... and sometimes, if I shop carefully, I can get around that general rule and snag a high quality item at a discount price. </p>

<p>Why should college be different? Yes it is overpriced -- so was buying a house in the SF bay area, yet for some odd reason I was willing to sacrifice every last dollar of cash I had and make a 30-year-commitment to live in a house that isn't nearly as nice as the houses I grew up in. If we value education enough, we'll pay for it -- if not -- well there's always the community college and the local CSU. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, while I'm agonizing over the exhorbitant costs of college tuition, I'm typing this missive on a $1200 piece of equipment sitting on my lap with more computing power than was available to run the NASA command center in during the first manned flight to the moon..... after spending a weekend advising my son on where he can find a better, more powerful, sleeker, lighter computer for $850. </p>

<p>That's just the way the real world works.</p>

<p>Again, I'm not going to try to second guess what someone else did. To TheGFG - you DIDN'T make a double-deposit, so it isn't an issue -- whatever you may have wanted to do, you ended up playing by the rules. So I have no quarrel at all with you. </p>

<p>But I certainly can understand why a college wouldn't particularly want to accommodate a family by providing documents to be used in a bidding war. It's a seller's market.</p>

114

<p>I liked the plane ticket analogy, though fortunately the airlines are not interested in deciding whether or not to choose a particular customer to be their passenger over other passengers (except perhaps obese people and suspected terrorists). </p>

<p>In summary, we did not try to haggle using revised offers, though I'm not convinced we were prohibited from doing so by any contract or mutually agreed-upon set of rules or ethics. Nor do I think financial aid is an "act of grace." Companies always use preferential pricing as a way of getting the business they want, and smart customers try to get that preferential pricing. </p>

<p>My point is that I can empathize with those who perceive a need to haggle as long as possible. If extensions aren't agreed to, they may need to lead two schools to believe they are planning to attend when in the end they'll choose the one which gives more after an appeal or two. Folks, we are talking about a huge amount of money here and this is the only purchase I can think of which has such a unique set of conditions to navigate. Maybe dowry negotiations came close?</p>

115

<p>Actually, I think that buying a house really is the biggest financial transaction, involving shifting pricing & terms & conditions, that I have personally been involved in. And unlike the college situation, the time frames tend to be shorter - deposits or earnest money tend to be a lot larger - and the buyer has to worry that there might be someone in the wings ready to offer a better price if the sale falls through. Plus once you sign the dotted line on the house there really is no getting out of it ... you can't decide after one semester that you are unhappy & transfer to a different, cheaper house, at least not until you've found a buyer for your own house. </p>

<p>I don't think you or anyone else is prohibited from haggling over price -- its just that there is a time limit for doing so, and I don't think it is acting in good faith to make multiple deposits in order to keep the time frame open for more haggling. In fact, if I were running a financial aid office, I would protect against that by absolutely refusing to look at or consider offers from other colleges after the May 1st deadline. Keep in mind that any college probably has full-pay students on their wait list -- so in a sense it may be to their advantage to have a financially needy student go elsewhere. Why should they give you a price advantage if you are waffling, if there are other customers eager to pay standing in line outside the door? </p>

<p>I go back to to the good faith issue. Accepting need-based financial aid is a leap of faith in and of itself -- I have to hope that the college will deal with me in good faith in years #2, #3, and #4. If my daughter's college were to change the way the value my home equity mid-way through, we'd be toast. Simply as a matter of pragmatism, I don't find it useful to get into an adversarial relationship with someone I will have to be dealing with for years to come.</p>

116

<p>Yup, I agree with your last paragraph and that is why we chose to handle it the way we did also.</p>

117

<p>sorry, I hope my scenario hasn't been adressed by someone already but just want to clarify and make sure I'm not getting myself in trouble- say you send a deposit to a school by May 1st but another school doesn't get back to you with decisons until june 1st; if the second school accepts you is it wrong to tell the first school that u change ur mind and u'll rather enrol in school 2?</p>

118

<p>If you are waitlisted at another school, then it is considered o.k. to make a deposit at the school that has accepted you. They understand about waitlists. </p>

<p>What we are discussing in this thread is the situation where the student makes simultaneous deposits at more than one school that has already accepted him, either to try to secure some sort of financial advantage or simply to delay making up his mind until later on.</p>

119

<p>thanks calmom~!</p>

120

<p>Calmom, your posts are a valuable reality check. Your personal experiences clearly illustrate the need to balance off pragmatic concerns and ethical principles. With more and more applicants applying to and receiving multiple acceptances from colleges and universities during this coming of age baby-boomer applicant pool the issues addressed by all the participants in this thread bring up valid points worthy of debate. Obviously, the admissions process is highly competitive -even cutthroat in certain situations - and is skewed in favor of the colleges rather than the student. Except for a few posters who keep dredging up these points, this is not what is under discussion. Most of the early posts in this thread directly address and acknowledge this aspect of the admissions game. Back in the day, colleges notified prospective admits on April 15. It was a "buyer's" market and while the stakes have always been high given the particular applicant pool in any given year, the era of the common ap and the sheer volume of applicants and applications have, to my mind, changed the admissions game as a process and the issue of double depositing goes right to the heart of it. The process is in danger of spiraling out of control - reading the threads on CC it almost seems ridiculous to advise a prospective student these days to only apply to 5 or 6 schools - people are afraid and want to hedge their bets. As Roger did point out in his post, this discussion "gets to the core of ethical issues surrounding the college admissions and financial aid process." Perhaps there has been no other time in greater need of sorting out one's personal take on this issue. Now, I don't think anyone is trying to foist their personal opinions or ethics on anyone else - and I don't think that too many people are offended if we each take responsibility and get off the fence to take a moral position. There has to be a bottom line somewhere.</p>