<p>Hey all. I'm applying to USC this upcoming fall and, looking through the USC site, both the Computer Science (Games) and Interactive Media & Games programs look really appealing. I want to go into game design in the future (like every other kid out there, I know) and I'm really torn between these two. </p>
<p>On the one hand, getting a BS in Computer Science (Games) opens up jobs not only in the game industry but also out in the CS industry in general. The only catch is that I'm honestly not that great at math and really don't enjoy it. My current (but so far, only) SAT Math score is a 680, I got a B in Pre-calc, and though I haven't taken Calc yet I can't imagine that I'll be skipping through the flowers in that class either.</p>
<p>This is why Interactive Media appeals so much to me. A) The amount of math I'll have to do is severely cut back and B) it appeals to my much more dominant creative side. But I've heard people say that getting a degree in just game design really limits job options in this market, as even most industry employers are looking for CS applicants. I know the USC game design department is topping the charts in game design, so if possible I'd like to tap into that, but I don't want to limit my job options after graduation and my parents are really pushing for a BS instead of a BA. If I need to, I'm hoping I'll be able to push through and deal with the math on the CS track.</p>
<p>Disregarding for the moment the statistics against even getting into USC and then the IM program, what do you think would be the workload of doing a double major in these two programs along with a minor in 2-D Art for Games? Or, in general, the workload of any double major+minor at USC? Sorry for the lengthy question guys!</p>
<p>My son will be doing a CS (Games) major with a IMGD minor. This is very doable as four of the courses required for the minor are also required for the major. This leaves only four additional courses to take for the minor. It is very difficult to squeeze in another major with CS (Games) much less another major. My son just finished two Prereqs at a community college to make room for the minor.
Btw his first choice was IMGD but he was denied but accepted to USC as Undecided but going right into CS (Games). He is great in math and physics and just received an A in C++. He is a 2015 Spring admit.</p>
<p>Thanks GamerGal! Yeah, looking around here and other forums, it definitely seems like double majoring with CS isn’t the greatest idea. Plus I just saw that it’s impossible to double major in those two anyways because you can’t double major your way into two different degrees. A CS(Games) major and IMGD minor is something I might look into though. Incidentally, did USC give any reason for your son’s denial into IMGD?</p>
<p>No reason. They only accept around 3% of admits so I don’t think they have time to offer explanations to 970 applicants. Honestly I always thought CS Games was a better fit for him. He’s totally a math guy.</p>
IMGD majors graduate with (looks like) 100% employment, so no worries there. However, many of the most desirable jobs they get require expertise/experience and good command of various programming languages, game engines, 3-D modeling software, etc etc. Some will be learned through classes req for the major, while a lot is picked up over the course of 4 years of prototyping your own games and advanced game project teams you’ll get involved with outside of class as well. This is different than the very deep level of comp sci, math and programming classes that a CS grad will have. However, even with IMGD you will need to do well in the req programming classes, and they are not easy. As far as getting a job, a lot will be up to your own initiative in acquiring skills and expertise, your advanced games project, and networking, </p>
<p>2) The CompSci degree will offer a wider variety of future career options (outside of games industry). Keep in mind, this greater flexibility will only appeal to those who actually love the idea of having a comp sci career. If working as a computer engineer at an insurance company is not your cup of tea, it’s less likely you’ll get the job.</p>
<p>3) Both these majors are extremely difficult admits, but each School will look at your application with different agendas. Viterbi (CS-Games) will be more interested in the rigor of your math in HS plus top grades and scores in Math, while SCA (IMGD) admission evaluates your creative portfolio, ECs, honors and accomplishments in game design. In a sense, you should look to your own strengths and interests and see where you have a likelier chance. </p>
<p>4) Since both are so competitive, it could be a good idea to apply to both (you may chose 2 majors on your USC application). You will have to submit all the required material for the SCA app, of course, but you get two chances for acceptance.</p>
<p>@madbean My son actually applied to IMGD as his first choice and CS (Games) as his second. He was denied to IMGD and told he was never even evaluated for CS (Games) since there were 10,000 applicants who put it as their first choice. I was surprised to learn he was never evaluated as I thought that was standard practice. This could make one rethink whether doing what my son did is the best option. He was lucky to get in the back door as an Undecided but I can’t believe that is normal.
Both majors are so competitive. I think one needs to really think about where their skills lie and put all the effort into that application.</p>
<p>Oh wow, thank you madbean for the sound advice. When you put it that way, it looks like my chances may be slightly higher with IMGD. I’ll continue to think about, but thank you so much for the analyses. @GamerGal27 I’m amazed they didn’t even look at your son just because he put it as his second choice. That’s just…wow. It’s just that competitive, huh. Thank you for sharing that, I would not have expected that kind of nonchalance towards applicants at all.</p>
<p>Oh my, GamerGal. The policy is to evaluate each applicant for each major stated–I’m wondering if they were just too overwhelmed this year? Still, your son’s story shows how fallible any system may be. Or perhaps things have changed? In the past, all applicants files were forwarded to each School (like Viterbi) and I was told the status of the applicant (whether this major was listed as 1st or 2nd choice) was not part of the material forwarded. It would make a big difference if one’s choice of order disadvantaged them. Why even give students the option to list a 2nd major in that case? As another point of reference, one of my sons was admitted to both majors he applied to, in different Schools. But thanks to your info, all applicants should take heed. I’d be interested if someone was willing to call USC and get clarification. </p>
<p>Just to clarify, the 10,000 applicants were to Viterbi overall, not just CS (Games). I didn’t mean to freak you out @poiira. It was Paul Ledesma, Admissions Director at Viterbi who told me this.</p>
<p>I agree with what madbean and GamerGal27 have said; they give good advice :)</p>
<p>@poiira : Seems like you already have a good understanding of CS (Games) vs IMGD. If, hypothetically, you would choose CS (Games) if you were excused from the math classes, then I would choose CS (Games). Keep in mind you still have to take all the programming and algorithm classes. I say this because if you like programming enough and can deal with the conceptual side of math and logic, then you’ll be able to get through the math classes. </p>
<p>I’d break down decision criteria based on your concern into Programming, Algorithms, and Math.
If you don’t like programming then do not do CS (Games).
If you can handle conceptual math and logic, then Algorithms should be doable. Most students don’t like it because it’s challenging, but they get it done. This is barely an example, but it shows one of the basic constructs: <a href=“http://www.edrawsoft.com/images/examples/Process-Flowchart.png”>http://www.edrawsoft.com/images/examples/Process-Flowchart.png</a> If this makes sense and you could create much larger, complicated flow charts, then you should be able to handle Algorithms.
If you can survive calc and linear algebra, then CS (Games) is a valid choice.
Who knows, you might go into tools programming and only need to use simple math.</p>
<p>@madbean: Regarding employment, I would worry about IMGD, but not really CS (Games). When it comes to employment, there’s a strong trend CS (Games) fares better. This aligns with one of the core goals of CS (Games) of making students highly employable. This is not a core goal of IMGD. </p>
<p>IMGD majors do not graduate with 100% employment. The number is very high if you count all forms of generating income, including internships, contract work, and work outside of games. I know an IMGD major that graduated a year ago (2013) that would count as employed upon graduation because he was entering a 3 month game design internship, but since that ended he hasn’t found a job. I wouldn’t be too happy if I got my Games education and then got an unrelated job or had to rely on contract work that didn’t offer financial stability. </p>
<p>Of course USC is going to spin the numbers anyway they can in order to look amazing. I would prefer to measure successful employment upon graduation as getting at least one full-time job offer in games, design, or programming, within two months of graduation (or contract equivalent). This would lower the percent for IMGD a good deal, and lower the percent for CS (Games) too, but a significantly less amount. A different member of the IMGD class of 2013 estimates that less than 50% of his classmates found games jobs after, and most were not being a game designer. Production, Art, and QA have been most common. I have never seen a year where this number would be lower than 75% for CS (Games).</p>
<p>I’m not saying this to look down on IMGD majors. Some of my favorite people to work with are IMGD, and they’re extremely talented. But only the most driven ones get the high level of success. </p>
<p>@psydent Yeah, flowcharts and stuff like that I’m alright with, and I tried the tutorial and it worked, which is fine, but I didn’t know what I was typing half the time. It was pretty fun though, just…complicated. It is something that I feel I’d be able to get with time though. </p>
<p>As for getting a job graduating from the IMGD department, the numbers you gave are certainly a far cry from 100%, but I wouldn’t mind working in Production or Art either. But still, less than 50% is a harrowing figure to go against…</p>
<p>In the plus side regarding the IMGD job search…my S didn’t have a job in his pocket upon graduation, but he did let his professor know that he was in job search mode. That same day, the professor made a call to one of his colleagues, and S had a job before you could say hallelujah. (S didn’t even have a face to face interview – just a phone screen before getting the offer. It was the weirdest interview process, but I’m not complaining.) S just shipped his first title as a level designer on a game with lots of name recognition, so he’s thrilled. Also, I admire the students who would be happy in either IMGD or CS Games, because that doesn’t describe my son at all.</p>
<p>I’m currently a CS major at Viterbi. I make mobile games and I am interested in making games but the reason that I am not pursuing a CSGames or IMGD major is because of the curriculum. The straight CS program has a lot of room for electives where I can choose classes which I think will help me the most instead of trying to check off requirements. Particularly, I came in with a goal of graduating in 3 years which is very possible for a CS major but nearly impossible for CSGames or IMGD majors unless they stay for summer classes. Heres just a couple notes that might help you:
Double majoring in IMGD and CSGames would not be allowed I’m quite sure because of the large crossover. CS and IMGD would, and would certainly be more marketable and useful without many extra classes (probably less classes).
Think big picture. Is games it for the rest of your life? If not, if you think you’d be into making movies or other entertainment ventures, IMGD will help put you into that creative mind set. If your into social media or web, CS will prepare you to work on these.
If you are interested in Indie games or start ups, I would definitely say that programming should be a priority for you. Prototyping and presenting becomes a lot easier when you can code up a rough copy of your game in a couple days and share with your friends. The IMGD program does not create strong programmers. It creates people that know how to program. But if you are in the IMGD program and want to be a strong programmer, you’re going to have to put in more time than your classes require.
Lastly, all programs have electives. If you go with CSGames, you are still welcome to take any game class you want. If you go with IMGD, you can certainly take programming classes. The reason why I decided to go with a CS major is because I find it harder to learn the technical things. I can read for days on creative subjects but I have made a mission to learn how to program more than once in my life and could never really accomplish it on my own, I needed professors and due dates in order to achieve that. It’s weird to think of choosing a degree in order to cater to your weaknesses and not your strengths in life, but I feel that my life will be a lot easier a couple years from now when programming is no longer my weakness.</p>
<p>One last note, since employment has come up a lot in this thread. USC has great networking if you take advantage of it and I’m not the kid that goes to every interview or anything, I didn’t even apply for any internships this year, but I did get the chance to sit down with Microsoft, Amazon, and other recruiters last year. They all emphasized the same point: This isn’t high school, I don’t really care about your GPA. When people are looking to hire employees in the game/cs field, they want to see what you’ve done. If you’ve made great games, your not going to have a hard time getting a job. If you’ve done a couple class project games that were never published and were secretary of the tennis club, good luck out there. In fact, at a lot of these companies some employees don’t even have college degrees.
Don’t think that your major is going to define the rest of your life. You have electives to figure out what you want to do and if you prove that you can accomplish things, employers will take notice.</p>
<p>@poiira That’s great to hear you think you can enjoy it. There’s definitely a learning curve to programming so it’s ok to not understand half of the things. Keep messing around and learning. Having a portfolio will help your chances of being admitted. In the end, you can’t go wrong picking between IMGD and CS (Games). I do suggest you still think about whether the math is going to make you miserable. If you can get through the required (yet unnecessary) classes like calculus, when you get into industry most math will be algebra and physics, so you should be on top of those. </p>
<p>Regarding the IMGD employment rate, I should add that a number of those who would not fit the outlined successful employment criteria might have been able to do so, but it’s not what they wanted. IMGD tend to have more… creative and artsy types, or stated another way, the types who don’t desire to have a ‘normal’ job, which would constrain their ideas and choices. Some of the not successfully unemployed IMGD alumni I know are happy with part-time contract work (some make ends meet, some live at home) and working on their own projects. And on the flip-side, some others are wishing they could land a non-temp job in games.</p>
<p>I think CCMThreeTimes’s story shows the importance of doing well and the relationships you build while in school. I don’t think the professor would have pulled those strings unless your son was a good student/designer. Congrats to your son! </p>
<p>Thanks, @psydent. S’s entire class was pretty amazing – I think the prof would have pulled strings for any of them. When you talk about the creative and artsy types, you’re describing one of S’s friends exactly. This student ended up dropping out of IMGD to create his own games. He has won some awards, is living at home and picking up contracts with good companies, and he’s perfectly happy. My guess is he’s not the only one in IMGD who would be thrilled with less stable but fulfilling career options.</p>
<p>@psydent I could probably slug my way through those somehow, I’ve survived this far after all…and looking at the curriculum for a CS (Games) major, the fact that there are only three required math classes doesn’t seem too too bad. Speaking of a portfolio though, (and sorry to be skipping between schools like this, I just really want to get all the information I can) would you or anyone else have any recommendations for what should go into an IMGD portfolio? I figure having a completed game in there would be nice, but I feel like learning a programming language and creating one in the short amount of time between now and admissions is a bit of a long shot.</p>
<p>@H2whoa I’d be perfectly happy graduating in four years, but what you said about programming strength coming out of college does worry me a bit. Is the gap really so big? Do you think taking programming electives as an IMGD major could close the gap significantly at all, or is it just a vain effort? Catering to your weaknesses does seem like an effective strategy in the long run…</p>
<p>@CMMThreeTimes Oh god it’s a relief to hear a success story. Employment after graduation just has me really stressed out with all of the bad news about the job market right now. Could I ask what game your son worked on? Or if you’d rather not say, that’s fine too. </p>
<p>Since Computer Science (Games) already implies a minor like ability in games, what is the point of actually officially getting a Minor in Interactive media, other than just to take more electives in Interactive Media?</p>
<p>@poiira, I think the employment situation is much better now than a couple of years ago (going only on the evidence of my son and his friends who graduated in different years). I’ll send a PM about the company and game. Good luck with your decisions!</p>
<p>@rgosula My son thinks the IMGD courses are fun. He’s working hard to make the room for the four extra courses. Personally I would have preferred he do the Game Audio minor instead. He’s an accomplished violinist with a few years of piano behind him. He took a music tech class his last semester senior year and now has a very nice game music portfolio. He really loves creating music.</p>
