One of the easiest double majors to get is Math and Physics, as practically half the required classes overlap with each other. The connection between the two majors is uncanny, so for someone like me with interest in both a double major would be perfect. I was also looking into the BS/MS joint program in mathematics, of which I heard is is fairly intense.
From another thread here on CC (http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/467833-math-at-u-of-c.html) phuriku said that at a minimum it is approximately 2500 courses, not including core classes. However, 400 of those credits are physical science (would be completed if I did a Physics major), and if I take out the overlap in the Physics major for the math classes I’d take, it looked to be 900 credits (and that’s assuming I don’t get any credit from the accreditation exam… I think I will). The math and physics courses would take out 400 of the 1500 general education credits, so that would be an additional 1100 credits necessary, so far putting me at 4100 credits, which I believe counted all my electives. On top of this, I will be coming in with all 6 of the maximum AP credits I can use towards general educations.
My question mainly is, is my math correct, or am I misunderstanding the system at Uchicago? With the AP credits, I believe I’m looking at 3500 credits necessary to graduate with a BS/MS in Math as well as a BS in Physics (STILL not including if I get 300 credits from successfully passing the Physics Accreditation Exam…) Would it be feasible for me to do this at Uchicago? Or should I just stick with the normal double major? If I read it correctly, a full course load for all four years at Uchicago is 4800 credits. So is 3500 credits or so (Or even the 4100 credits if we aren’t as generous) a reasonable number to take for those credits? I am aware I’ll have less free time and won’t be able to explore college as much as if I had the space to take other classes, but I believe that is a sacrifice I’d be okay with.
My son did a BS physics/BA math/MS in math in 4 years at another university, which had a BA/MS program in math started/modeled after a UChicago program by a math professor who had done it at UChicago back in the 70s (one of my dormmates incidentally). Son is now in a math PhD program.
If your thought is to attend grad school in math or physics, I would discourage you from doing the above. The downsides that DS found are:
– if you plan to continue in math, the physics degree does not really add anything, and if anything, takes time away from focusing on math. The advanced lab class required of a physics major, for example, which is quite labor intensive, is of no use to a future mathematician. And while taking graduate math classes is helpful/expected, having the MA degree does not make you more attractive to PhD programs. Many PhDs pick up an MA along the way anyway if they want, or drop out of PhD with a consolation MA degree.
– if you want to continue in physics, the math (esp pure math courses) are not particularly helpful, and again, take away from focusing on physics. DS initially intended to continue in physics but did not take grad physics classes because he was busy fulfilling his BA/MA in math requirements. In fact, his transcript ended up more math heavy due to the BA/MS degree classes >> physics classes. Physics PhD programs don’t necessarily see this as a plus.
Also, he found he was not eligible for the NSF grad fellowship program when he went to apply for that as a second year grad student as his 4th year in college was apparently considered a ‘grad’ school year and hence he already had >2years of graduate experience.
So having watched all that, I would say: take extra physics or math classes if you like the subject, but don’t spend the extra time to fill out all the requirements for a double major/MA. The benefit you get from doing all that is not that much and actually can have more than a bit of downside as DS discovered.
@Syblyx I’m not sure about the credits part but I can offer some insight qualitatively.
First off, I applaud your bravery and motivation–I’ve never heard of anyone do a physics and math BS/MS double since it’s insanely difficult. My physics teacher this quarter (I’m a physics major too) outright said the first day of class that “if you’re doing a double major in physics and math, don’t.” To do the BS/MA in math, you need to 1) place into Honors Analysis (20700) your first year (only ~10 people get placed here each year and many decide to move down the first couple of weeks) by pretty much getting the entire calc accreditation exam correct (this includes being comfortable with proofs!) and 2) get at or above an A- in all your math classes your first and second year to do grad courses your third year. If you excel in such math and are ready to take on 30+ hours a week of work on one class (from what I hear the workload of honors anlysis to be) and keep up your grades, a BS/MS is certainly possibly. Now if you have the time/effort/energy to study physics beside it…I guess that’s up to you. Also, the physics accreditation exam for 14000’s is supposed to be notoriously difficult–the department really doesn’t want you skipping out on the basics. I only know of 1 person who has successfully skipped the 14000’s and placed into modern their first year.
Also keep in mind that math at UChicago is VERY theoretical–all proofs, little to no computation. They even throw proofs into the reg calc classes…my physics professor said that almost none of the math you do in upper level math courses is applicable to what you do in physics, so you’re going to be doing two very different kinds of math in your physics and math courses. Of course, analysis and all that may give you some more insight on math concepts you apply in physics, but you will never have to do “proofs” in physics (at least not like the ones you’d do in math).
Honestly, I would just go for the normal double major if I really wanted to do both math and physics an wait to get an MS. Of course, you want to have time to do other things like RSOs, work, do some research (especially important is you want to go to grad school for physics/math), and sleep. You may think right now you’re okay with sacrificing your free time, but down the line you may regret trying to do so much as an undergraduate–there’s no rush. I’d say just focus on subjects you’re truly interested in and spend time doing things that are meaningful to you. If you try a harrowing double major, you also run into problems of having to take courses on time (for example you absolutely need to take a certain course at a certain time or else you won’t graduate in four years), which can be very stressful if you have schedule conflicts.
@ihs76 Hmm, I see. Every elective chance I get in math, I try my best to pick a math that’s more applicable than theoretical, although I know the Masters is more theoretical. The problem for me is I’m not sure if I want a PhD in Math or Physics-- I love them both so much, but I don’t think I know enough about either until I really begin to get into the fields. I am going to start building a four year plan and see how much room it leaves me for classes… I’d like to have enough room to at least take a few graduate level physics classes. Your son’s personal experience is really enlightening, but if it’s not too much to ask, what undergrad did he go to? I would like to see how many of their courses for math and physics overlap at the college and compare to Uchicago. When looking at the requirements side by side for Uchicago (I did that and highlighted the overlaps [here](http://imgur.com/XQNESou)), it surprises me the amount of overlap between the two degrees. If your son’s undergrad doesn’t have as much an overlap, then I’d like to hope that I might have more free time in my situation. If not, then it’ll be pretty clear what the implications are. Thank you so much for your personal experience!! It sounds like you son was in a very similar boat, and that information is really enlightening.
@aykt4245 I hope it’s bravery and not foolishness; difficulty doesn’t always mean rewarding. That’s very surprising your physics teacher said that, I am actually very very curious as to his reasoning. If you know, I’d love to hear. I know the prerequisites for the major, and obviously if I don’t make it in my plan of action is pretty clear. I personally would like to believe I have a fair chance (I’m actually a junior right now, finishing multivariable calculus right now, I will be reading Spivak over both summers and doing math programs to learn and improve on proofs).
Is the physics accreditation exam for the 14000’s notoriously HARDER than the calculus accreditation exam? Once again, just like calculus, I am self teaching myself Physics C this year and taking the AP test, and will continue my self studying in physics over the summers, so with so much time I sure hope I could pass the accreditation exam.
Nevertheless I definitely am taking your advice into account, and will weigh it in when considering my options when declaring majors. Scheduling is something I haven’t fully considered, and while it will obviously change in between now and when I do get to those years, I will build a four year plan right now just to test and see how much room I have in my schedule, as well as see if any of the times overlap. Thank you very much! Please follow up with me!
The 6 APs can be used as elective credits but I think you would have to take more core classes than you are counting. Math and science would be as you described though. Will you come in with foreign language credit because that is not included in the 4800 and they require a year if you don’t have the credit. I agree with ihs76 that if you plan on getting a PhD the MS really won’t be helpful and could hurt you. Just take grad classes as you desire. Scheduling is an issue as there are a number of classes only offered certain quarters or years. My son had to rearrange his study abroad to a different quarter to take a class. Getting the classes you want is easy it’s just when they are offered. There is a planning sheet on the UChicago site that helps map things out but some things aren’t explained well in terms of the AP credit stuff and what you can get credit for and skip so my son ended up needing 1 more class than expected.
@Syblyx With regards to my physics teacher’s comment, I think he says this because of how polar the maths in the math department and physics departments are–one is not very applicable to the other. If you want to go to grad school for physics, the higher level math courses probably won’t help much since most of the math used in physics isn’t taught there. In fact, physics majors here only have to finish a calculus sequence (150s or 160s) and take a class called Math Methods for Physics (221), or if you’re in 130’s physics you take Intro to Math Methods for physics instead of 153 or 163, and then you’re done with your math requirements for the major. Professors pretty much either go over some of the physics math in class or you just have to learn it on your own. I think what he meant by his comment was that if you want to do physics, focus on physics because it’s a lot of work and its one of the most difficult majors at the college. Classes are tough and doing both math and physics will take away time to focus only on physics. (Btw this is just what I believe my prof thinks, not necessarily what I think…In my opinion, if you’re equally passionate about physics and math, there’s no reason why you can’t do both).
Your math background seems strong and doing Spivak and pre-learning analysis sounds like a good plan if you want to be placed in honors analysis–Spivak is what they use in the 160’s (honors calc) sequence.
I have heard that the accreditation exam for physics 14000’s is much harder than the calc exam…it is very rare you will find people skipping out of physics–it’s more common to place higher in the calc exam. I think the physics department purposefully makes the exam hard so people will learn the basics of physics and not skip over it to get a better foundation and background. And 140’s, in general, has tough problems on both psets and exams that are at a higher level than AP C problems (I can attest to this…I’m in the 140’s now), and the accreditation test will reflect this.
Scheduling can be a pain…especially for classes that are only offered one quarter a year. Physics is one of the more rigid majors, so in terms of flexibility like if you want to study abroad, it is pretty much impossible. Four year plans are fun to do during the summer if you’re bored out of your mind (like I was), but remember that these plans can change very quickly–I had my first year schedule all planned out and then changed it a few hours before registering for classes during o-week! And classes can and do change times, quarters offered, etc., so it’s really hard to plan ahead, but props to you for being so on top of things!
Feel free to message me if you have more questions regarding physics!
Please find a better use for your time as a junior in high school than plotting out a four-year curriculum at the University of Chicago (or any other university) to see whether there are time conflicts that would affect a stunt double major. The list of things that would be more valuable to do is infinite; it includes taking a nap and experimenting with drugs.
Question your initial premise: That because you are interested in both physics and math, and because the fields have overlapping requirements, it makes sense for you to double major. It rarely makes sense for anyone to double major. The employment world doesn't reward it; the graduate school world doesn't reward it; it seriously erodes your ability to take electives that interest you that don't count towards one of your majors. Doing an AB-SB/SM in physics and math would eliminate anything but the courses for that and the Core, which means you lose a major benefit of an American university.
Double majoring may make sense if one of the majors is Theater Arts or Slavic Literature – although even then, I think no – or if you are one or two courses shy of completing major #1 when you decide that you would really rather do major #2. Planning a double major and concurrent masters in related fields is just showing off, a sign of immaturity, not ability. Find other, more valuable ways of challenging yourself.
Where has the obsession with double majors come from? I don’t remember it as an undergrad (we had interdisciplinary programs and the possibility of defining your own field of study). I got my PhD at a place where double majors were (and still are) prohibited. Then I taught at a school where seemingly every undergrad wanted a double major (often in fields where the requirements were so similar that there was no point – e.g. political philosophy (in the Philosophy dept) and political theory (in Poli Sci)).
Is this a spinoff of the AP obsession (collect them all!)? Or a reaction to insane tuition costs (2 degrees for the price of one!)? As others have pointed out, there’s not a clear intellectual or employment payoff and there are some obvious detriments so I wonder what’s driving this. Sometimes it’s kid wants one major, parents want another but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.
So Syblyx, if you don’t mind my asking (apologies if you do!), why isn’t the right answer here that you take courses in both fields (and ones that could be used to satisfy requirements for either) for a year or two to help you figure out which appeals to you more? At which point you choose a major and take whatever courses interest you in other fields rather than saddle yourself with two different sets of requirements for majors on top of the Core? Usually majors have the requirements they do in part because there are always some subfields in the discipline that aren’t of interest to any particular major but which you should have at least some familiarity with. If you double major, you end up pushed to achieve that kind of superficial exposure in two fields rather than hone in on the courses outside your discipline that are most relevant to the specific things you want to study. For me, the process of defining and refining my interests was probably the most interesting part of college. So that’s where I’m coming from.
I’m guessing this is just a situation where you have limited info and real eagerness to be on your way, so you’re trying to work with what you’ve got available (which is lists of requirements). Maybe an alternative approach would be to poke around and see what the physicists at a variety of schools you’re looking at are researching. That’d give you a better sense of what the field looks like and which schools have departments/programs/faculty that you find particularly interesting. Plus it’d be more fun than juggling hypothetical course schedules and you might learn something of more lasting value.
I feel the need to defend my son a bit here :D, although I would say he did not ‘plan’ the outcome but rather fell into it. The story was:
He always thought he would become a physicist. He started taking math classes in college and became quite enamored of the subject. Yet as he planned to become a physicist, he decided to take as many math courses, including graduate classes, as he could while still in college. From there it was pretty easy to fill in the requirements for the BA/MS in math. I am a bit biased as his parent but I did think that taking graduate Analysis classes as a college junior does denote some ability, no?
He then applied to physics grad programs and had unexpectedly poor outcomes (probably because he didn’t exhibit obvious passion for physics). Somewhere late in this process, he finally decided he really preferred mathematics, left physics never to look back. Now he is in a Math PhD program and happy as the proverbial clam.
OK, there probably was some showing off and some immaturity, but there also was genuine interest in both fields and a convoluted road that led across both majors.
@ihs76 I hope you noticed that the sentence in my post that preceded the one you quoted suggested that a double major was fine if you pick up a new interest in the course of completing your original major. That describes my wife, too. Ironically, her original major, that she all-but-abandoned in favor of major #2, has been one of the keys to her career. But that didn’t start to happen until she was in her 30s, and several jobs and a graduate degree down the road.
I know I was being harsh in what I wrote – I was using vivid language to make a point. Of course, double-majoring doesn’t mean that a kid is a bad person. I’m all in favor of letting 18-year-olds make their own mistakes, and double-majoring is not exactly a scary, serious kind of mistake. In most cases, though, it’s evidence of immaturity, and also of misunderstanding what a major is for, how to make the most of it, and why American undergraduate curriculums are structured the way they are.
In the session for families put on by the Advising office during Orientation this fall, they were quite firm about advising against double majors. Said the only thing you get is small letters on your diploma and transcript that lists your second major. From what DD (first year) says however, sounds like many students intend doing double majors (econ/math, physics/math, math/CS). Perhaps it’s a lot of huff and puff and no idea how many actually end up following through.
Not sure when this all changed…30+ years ago at UChicago, it actually was just about impossible to do a double major and I didn’t know a single person who did it. My old bf, however, did apply to PhD programs in econ, physics and math so maybe he, effectively, was a triple major? LOL.
Uniquely for Chicago, the answer is easy to find. Every quarter, the registrar at Chicago publishes an enrollment report that includes the number of College students in each major (and splitting out second and third[!] majors), as well as the number of degrees awarded by major. I can’t tell precisely, but it looks like for students who triple-major, one of the majors is almost always math. Math, Economics, and Political Science are by far the most popular second majors; Math, Statistics and Chemistry are the most popular third majors.
It’s not impossible anymore, or even that difficult. That doesn’t make it a good idea.
I know someone who was a physics major at Chicago who went directly into a high-ranked math PhD program after college.
As for double-majoring and doing a concurrent masters in one of the majors: I don’t know anyone who got a concurrent masters in math, but several friends of my kids got concurrent masters in international relations. That was extremely demanding. There’s no way any of them could have also done a double major, at least not in four years. To be able to satisfy the masters requirement, they essentially had to be done with the Core and their major requirements by the end of their third year.
Among my concurrent housemates, there were 2 who received their MS in math along with their BA in 4 years.
One was a transfer in at beg of the 2nd year and finished his MS work by the end of 3rd year. However, did not finish his BA requirements (the dreaded Core) until end of 4th year, and that barely. Everyone knew he was brilliant in math. Went onto PhD in Princeton in math but did not enter academia (had issues).
The other was just a bright quiet kid who was mostly under the radar. Also went onto PhD in Princeton in math (finished in 3 years) and is a math professor at a well known university.
Neither of them double majored however. They had very little interests outside of math
One more data point re ‘ease’ of double majors: DS at another U on a semester system, rarely took more than 4 courses/semester (4 credits for the STEM classes = 14-16 credits/sem), so 8 courses/yr. Most kids at UC take 12 classes/yr. Makes it easier to fill in the (double/triple) major requirements despite the more extensive Core.
