Doubling up on foreign language in HS.

Parents Forum
1

<p>Looking for some guidance from parents whose kids doubled up on a foreign language in HS.
I know it is not going to be a lot of you, but if you yourself or your kids were ever in a situation like this please do share.</p>

<p>DD will be a HS freshman next year. She has this love and interest in foreign languages, although she does not think about building a career around it. At this point in her life she wants to become a vet ;)
Since we are an immigrant family, my daughter is fluent in English and another language that we speak at home. An obscure language, spoken only in the country of my birth.
She will most likely enter an IB school, so she will need to take an exit exam in a foreign language.
She would like one day to be able to converse in Spanish, Mandarin, French and Russian. She has been learning Spanish both at school and privately for the last few years and at this point she is able to communicate in it. We are thinking about doubling up on her conversational Spanish this year (twice a week from once) and we are also hoping that she will be able to visit Spain next summer for about 6 weeks, 3 of which will be spend in school atmosphere and she will be living with Spanish speaking family.
I have an older son that is taking Spanish 4 right now and DD is way ahead of him.</p>

<p>DD has been taking some kind of a Mandarin instruction for the past 2 years. Some of it was 1:1. Still, I do not think she is very good in it, but she definitely does have the basics.
The HS she is thinking about attending does offer Spanish, French and Mandarin.</p>

<p>I am a little lost at this point as to what she should do.</p>

<p>Option 1 - start Spanish in Spanish 4 as a freshman and progress gradually (probably taking some Spanish for native speakers) till she writes an IB Spanish exam as a senior. At the same time start French (what level?) and continue French as a second foreign language.</p>

<p>Option 2 - start taking Spanish at the college (5 minutes from our house) her HS freshman year and take Mandarin and French at the HS. If we chose this option, I will get her some private lessons in French this year that will enable her to start French 3 as a freshman (I have been told by numerous people that the first two years of a foreign language are a joke), but will probably be slow on Mandarin. If we chose this option she will have to take an exit exam in French.</p>

<p>Option 3 - continue Spanish as her BEST foreign language, adding French (still I will probably buy her private lessons to enable her to start French 3 as a freshman) and keep Mandarin as private lesson.</p>

<p>Russian is still on hold, probably till College ;)</p>

<p>Any ideas would be really appreciated.</p>

2

<p>I am familiar with language immersion programs that start as early as pre-K and continue through middle school (and beyond). Most typically these are French, Spanish and Chinese. Students who are in these programs have analogous background to your D. They (at least those who I know to have taken French and Chinese) are often bi-lingual when they graduate from middle school. Also in some of these programs (e.g. such as the handful of Lycees in the US) the “foreign” language is the primary language, and students in these programs take a second and often third foreign language.</p>

<p>So come high school – what to do? There’s a great deal of value in becoming bi-lingual in at least one of the languages. And there is a great deal of difference between being proficient and bi-lingual. There’s also a level of proficiency that makes study of the literature of the language of great personal value to the student. So I would recommend a variant of option three. Improve Spanish to the highest level possible during high school, using the high school resources and improving on them where possible.</p>

<p>Once you’re decided on the goal of bi-bilingualism for one language the question of which of the other languages has higher priority becomes clearer. I would pick the language that’s most different from the one chosen for bi-bilingualism. In your D’s case it’s Chinese.</p>

<p>And what about the 3rd and 4th language? I’m of the opinion that with age language study becomes more difficult. I don’t agree that the first 2 years of language study are a joke. Far from it for older (13+) students. The point is that the benefit of squeezing the third language (maybe with the exception of Latin) in high school is not urgent. The success factor is as high if the study is deferred to college.</p>

3

<p>I took three languages in high school and a couple of my children have studied several. In general, I agree with fogcity that obtaining a high level in one foreign language is important. I would ask the high school to place her in Spanish (they should be able to have her sit on the final to see where she would score well) and have her continue until she takes her exit exam in Spanish. </p>

<p>The beginning levels of French are not a ‘joke’ but, with her Spanish, she could probably move through them a bit faster than high school pace. If she were to continue French, I would be likely to pursue the beginning year of that at the nearby college. </p>

<p>If she were to take a second language in high school, I would have her take Mandarin because it will be a slower, more thorough approach than the college level.</p>

4

<p>D. was in 2 languages in middle school, had no problem, completed first HS Spanish while in middle school.</p>

<p>In regard to the languages on your D’s list, Spanish is very easy even as foreign language (non-native), Russian is very difficult even for native speakers. Altogether, my D. has 4 languages, although she is not fluent in any. She has placed into highest possible level at college for Spanish, at 3rd level, had an easy “A”. She took only one class to meet college graduation requirements. She is not into languages at all, and as I mentioned Spanish is a foreign language for her. She is pre-med who had academic interests outside of science, but she does not care about languages. In fact she never mention that she is capable to communicate in 4 (although not fluently). Some people just have easier way with languages, your D. is probably the same.</p>

5

<p>My D took four levels of both Spanish and Arabic in HS. She discussed her interest in Arabic in her college applications, and I have a sense that it helped her to definitively express why she had a legitimate interest in the schools to which she applied, some of which are very popular among applicants merely for prestige reasons. She even got a scholarship offer for Arabic study from a top school. I doubt that her applications would have been as distinctive had her second language been French instead of Arabic. That’s not a good reason to choose a language in which you aren’t genuinely interested, but perhaps something to consider if you’re intrigued by Mandarin.</p>

6

<p>S started French with a once-weekly group lesson–not in school–in around 3rd grade. When he entered 7th grade, where instruction begins in our schools, he went into 8th grade French because we figured that a)it would be very intimidating to be the sole 7th grader in class with HS students, and b) he would undoubtedly have gaps, especially in vocab, that daily exposure would help close. In 8th grade, he went to the HS for French 2, finished AP Frech Lang in 11th grade, and did the 2-yr AP French Lit as an independent study under the supervision of the AP French teacher and finished it in 12th grade.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, he wanted to start another language in 9th grade, and Spanish was the only living language alternative. At the suggestion of the head of the Spanish program, he was given the opportunity to skip Spanish 1 entirely and test into Spanish 2 in September. They gave him a textbook and a list of required chapters, and recommended an incoming Spanish 5 student to give him a little tutoring–mostly speaking the language with him–over the summer. Since he was away for the first half of the summer, this ended up being pretty much August alone. He had no difficulty with it and tested into Spanish 2. He completed AP Spanish in 12th grade.</p>

<p>S received 5s in all of his language AP exams, and always placed between first and fourth in the state on the yearly national exams in both languages. I think it’s fair to say that he has a strong facility for language.</p>

<p>It is my understanding that it is much easier to go from French to Spanish than the reverse–largely because of pronunciation–and that while Spanish 1 often moves very, very slowly for a student familiar with another romance language, the first year of other languages–and definitely the second year–is far from worthless.</p>

<p>S started Russian in college, and it has been, I gather, significantly more difficult than either of the Romance languages.</p>

<p>I agree that some variation on Option 3 sounds like the best course of action. The plan suggested by 2collegewego makes a lot of sense to me.</p>

7

<p>My daughter took AP French and pre-AP Spanish III as a freshman.
She took AP Spanish Langauge as a sophomore.
She’s in a new school now for her junior & senior years and they don’t offer French or Spanish above the level she’s already taken. So, she’s starting over in German I.</p>

<p>From our experience, we do see a lot of cross-over between French and Spanish. The pronunciation is very different, but she’ll already have the concepts of verb conjugation and noun/adjective gender and there are lots of Spanish/French cognates. There are several things that are known “gotchas” for people who are studying both languages (I think when to use the subjunctive is one of them.). I don’t know what is covered in French I or II or how many levels your school offers (we’re used to a system where year 4 is the AP year); I would think it would be hard to skip 2 years of language and that one would be more doable. </p>

<p>Your daughter could document her ability in Spanish through the AP exam and/or the SAT Subject test; she won’t be able to take the IB exam unless she takes the IB Spanish class.</p>

<p>There was a recent “Ask the Dean” question here on CC where the dean said they like to see students get to the point with a language where they’re studying literature in the language.</p>

8

<p>Two basic questions seem to be:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>which language to choose for IB exit exam.</p></li>
<li><p>which language to set aside for now.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>What are your D’s views on these two questions, and on the options you mentioned?</p>

9

<p>My S had 4 years of high school French and two full years of college Russian (he dual-enrolled in local university for the Russian). Now he’s in Egypt for a gap year of intensive Arabic study, on scholarship. I can’t advise specifically re. IB or test prepping, but any young person interested in “difficult” languages gets my support!</p>

10

<p>My S took German for 4 years and French for 3 (had to drop one to fit in a senior year Fine Arts requirement). His only difficulty was getting the guidance counselor to agree to letting him take both languages.</p>

11

<p>Good luck to your daughter! My son loves foreign languages, also. I wish he had taken more! He ended up taking 4 years of Spanish, audited an additional year (since his senior year was so crazy), and also completed 4 years of Latin in only 2 years. He seems to have a natural knack for languages, but he’s studying engineering in college. I hope he gets the chance to continue in one of the languages.</p>

12

<p>My D1 is a bit of a language freak. She took 4 yrs of Latin, 2 yrs Ancient Greek, 4 college semesters French (while in HS), and 3 semesters college Portuguese (ditto). She placed into advanced French at her college and is now taking an advanced course on French literature/literary criticism as a college freshman.</p>

<p>By and large I think it’s best to let kids follow their own interests in studying languages; they’ll be more motivated and learn better if it’s a language they really care about. If your D is equally passionate about all these languages, one additional thing to think about is what’s going to look best to college adcoms. The most selective colleges look for 4 years in a single language as a baseline expectation. IB-level proficiency is a plus, though if I’m not mistaken in most cases the IB tests come too late to be a factor in admissions decisions. If Spanish is currently her strongest language then by all means I’d lead with that, and take it as far as she can in HS. French would probably be the next easiest to pick up as the Romance languages share many similar words and grammatical structures. But I would say that’s probably an argument against making French her second-priority language in HS. Mandarin is hard, and very unlike Spanish. Better to start younger. Mandarin is also very time-consuming as there’s an enormous amount of memorization of characters. In your situation I’d probably go with Spanish and Mandarin, and view French as something she can pick up relatively easily later with a strong background in another Romance language. Russian is also going to be hard but that can wait until college. Becoming fluent in Spanish and getting a solid start with 4 years of Mandarin in HS would be a very impressive academic accomplishment, one college adcoms will notice. If she’s doing very well in Spanish and Mandarin she might want to start in on French while still in HS, but I’d begin with two languages and add the third later if things are going well and as time permits.</p>

13

<p>I’m impressed with your daughter. I don’t think there is really a right or wrong answer here. I think she should take the languages with the best teachers and take at least one language at the AP level. French is likely to be easy with Spanish as a background. (At least I found Italian incredibly easy coming in speaking fluent French.) I found Mandarin impossible. I love the writing, but I am tone deaf. Figuring out a way to do all three languages will certainly make her stand out. </p>

<p>If she’s got the time I agree that studying first year language at a college is a lot more efficient than high school. (Generally at least two years of high school material if not three will be covered in one year.)</p>

14

<p>To be proficient in several languages is always a plus, but more so if the student has personal and compelling reasons for his or her choices.</p>

<p>My daughter (homeschooled) studied Latin and French through the middle and high school years. Latin because she was following a classical/Great Books curriculum and understood that Latin was integral to the program and because she wanted to be able to read some of her primary sources in the language in which they were written (Aquinas, for example). French because she loved the sound, the country, the literature, and wanted–again–to read the literature in the language in which it was written.</p>

<p>She began Russian in high school because her coach and her ice dance partner speak Russian and because she represents a primarily Russian speaking country internationally. Both Latin and Russian are inflected languages, so her Russian studies have progressed quickly. It also helps that she’s exposed to the language every day.</p>

<p>It seems that her particular combination of languages and reasons for studying them were responsible in part for her acceptance to Columbia. There was a handwritten note on her acceptance letter that said as much. (For what it’s worth, she chose not to attend.)</p>

15

<p>I started French in eighth grade and added Spanish in eleventh, while continuing French. </p>

<p>Academically, it was easy. Socially, Spanish was frustrating because I had to take the class with ninth graders who were not smart enough to be allowed to start a language in eighth grade, the majority of whom didn’t want to be there (or a minority who were strong-willed enough to ruin the tone for the rest of the class). Compared to the rigor of my French class it was a joke (I’ll spare the anecdotes). It didn’t help that I knew the grammar that we were supposed to be getting (our new textbook, “Ven Conmigo” seemed to not believe in teaching grammar for the early chapters), and waiting for January for the teacher to get to conjugating all the verb forms was maddening. The following year, I took Spanish with students who had started in grade 8 (so Freshman again) in an honors class at a faster pace and it was much better.</p>

<p>I did not continue with Spanish in college and I took two semester of German senior year. The pace of the German class was much better and more grammar focused, but I would say that I have a much better vocabulary and command of Spanish because there was not as much actual drilling time in class, and frankly I was not as into German as I was into languages in high school (and had depression at the time). I found the two languages also interfered somewhat in my mind (less of the French, though, oddly). When I spent 10 days in a Spanish speaking country (for research purposes), my language knowledge was good enough for tourism, but I wish my foundation was better.</p>

<p>I cannot speak towards how languages affected my admission potential- I had high stats and was admitted to several LACs (I attended Wellesley), but denied at Harvard and Yale. This was in 2004.</p>

<p>Since people often take one language and stick with it, you daughter should realize that she will encounter some social issues either by being much ahead or much behind her peers and take classes with people in a different grade. I know someone who went to a French camp, and therefore never took it in high school because the classes did not meet her needs. Depending on your school’s size, the highest levels of the language class may not be offered! Also keep in mind that adding a languages is adding another subject to a schedule and there are already so many periods in a day. From what I’ve heard, becoming a veterinarian is more rigorous than becoming a doctor, so if you think she may actually become a vet, and this is not the passing fancy of a 13 year old girl, she probably shouldn’t pass up taking some sort of math and science class every year in favor of fitting these in (in my high school those weren’t required for graduation, but college bound students were to take them). She will also not have a lot of time.</p>

16

<p>If you’re going to take an especially challenging language (Russian, Arabic, an Asian language), I think it’s smart to start it as early as possible so that you have more opportunities for repetition. Even if the high school program isn’t rigorous enough to allow you to start literature courses at the beginning of college, the repetition of fundamentals over the course of years will make an accelerated course in college a relative breeze, so that you’re ready for literature much sooner than your classmates.</p>

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<p>(Not directed to the OP’s D, as I don’t think she could go wrong here. Very impressive! :slight_smile: ) </p>

<p>From a purely admissions standpoint, IMO, a language with a different writing system is likely to impress adcoms more than one that uses the Roman alphabet. I was proficient. though not fluent, in Japanese, and I think it did stick out to the adcoms more so than a similar level in, say, Spanish or French, even though Japanese is, IMO, no harder than those and much less useful than Spanish in most situations (I LOVE Japanese, but in some ways wish I had studied Spanish, as it would have been more useful). I think the fact whole idea of another writing system just makes a language sound much harder (and therefore, more impressive) to people in general, including adcoms</p>

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<p>MY 2012 daughter studied French in 8-10th then took a gap year last year as a Rotary exchange student in S. America in part because she was very young for her grade. She has probably given up French but is now fluent in Spanish and tested into a 3rd year Spanish course at a University nearby. As an 11th grader she’s taking an introductory Spanish literature course with college Spanish majors while beginning Mandarin at her high school. My opinion would be for your daughter to study Mandarin at school if the teacher is good and the class moves quickly enough for her and pursue the easier languages at home or during the summer at Concordia Language Villages or on youth exchange. My younger son studied Spanish for two years in middle school then tested into AP Spanish with juniors and seniors after a month in the high school credit program at CLV. He’s the only 9th grader in his class but one of the top students. French is more difficult than Spanish but any language with a different alphabet/ written system is exponentially more difficult. I would concentrate on that one for more intensive study.</p>