<p>GFG - agree with your concerns - no attack here.
I think these kids are under enormous pressure. We were at a state competition last year - all the parents, students and fans were gathered to watch two kids play the deciding match in the competition. Huge noise on every point. Everything down to one kid. One kid leaves heartbroken with all eyes on him. I was happy to see that the opposing parents actually reached out to the losing player and their parents. Tough though...</p>
<p>The biggest downside- it's lonely at the top. Whether it is academic, musical or athletic talent or acccomplishment, or some combination of all three, there are far fewer people at that level. It is harder to find people who understand and can relate at the same level. There may be a lot of people in the country, or even state, at the same level- but there probably are not any/many to share day-to-day experiences with. For example, gifted people do think differently, no matter how challenging the school and high-powered the academic offerings, that individual will not find many people who "get it" in the same way. Likewise the athlete or musician who excels with very little effort, others may work hard and come close, but there is a difference in relating.</p>
<p>For parents it can be hard to not be able to delight in your child's accomplishments, knowing the other parents' children can't come close. It can also be hard to accept praise on behalf of your child when you know the accomplishment isn't as great in the larger world- the other parent can think you are putting down their less accomplished child as they are unaware of the more elite world outside their experiences.</p>
<p>I was fortunate in being able to have a nice conversation with a parent awhile ago. Their son was a fantastic athlete in a given area and went with an athletic scholarship to a good school he struggled at academically. My son was a good athlete in his own, different area, but not stellar, whereas his academics are similar to the stellar athlete's sports accomplishments. This mother knew her son and mine and their relative sports/academic strengths- I was able to find out the logic of going to a real stretch school (the here and now sports opportunities are worth it- trying to make a point without revealing any personal details); I think she enjoyed being able to converse with someone who understood being "at the top", even though in different ways.</p>
<p>"I'm feeling attacked here."</p>
<p>I apologize if I added to your distress, I didn't mean my post as an attack. I was trying to diffuse what I perceived to be a little tension by being silly. </p>
<p>But, maybe you answered your own question about envious parents who think the world is like a pie, that each piece taken by someone else's child means less pie for their own child.</p>
<p>GFG; this is an interesting idea. There are a couple of threads started or contributed to by a poster named taxguy which suggest that anyone who pays for college is an idiot; that the goal should be to get a free ride so you can buy your kid a condo and they can become a landlord at age 19 or whatever. hey-- if it works for you, great.</p>
<p>But, for me, we paid for the kids to be in an environment where they were not the best, where the overall playing field in every endeavor was very high (except for sports at MIT.... although my kid was not an athlete) and where jealousy was really not part of the culture. If your kid has been the subject of other people's snide comments growing up, I wouldn't think that having that kid end up in a small Honors program at State U where they were easily identifiable as elite or special, would necessarily be a good thing.</p>
<p>So-- maybe we're not such dopes for paying for college.</p>
<p>GFG-- just try and keep giving your kids the message that if they do their best at things that matter to them they will have a rich and interesting life. The accolades and the other stuff are irrelevant as long as they're happy and challenged. These other parents are projecting their own inadequacies big time, but that's not your problem.</p>
<p>I can completely relate to your post, wis75! The whole team and cooperative aspect is hard to manage well. For example, if the more accomplished child compliments a classmate or teammate, it can ring hollow. The latter might feel uncomfortable accepting the praise, (despite the knowledge that he did in fact do well in relation to his own prior performances), simply because his performance was not as good as the more accomplished child's. He may feel the accomplished child is just trying to be nice, but isn't really sincere. </p>
<p>Also, as you point out, a mediocre performance for the talented child will be praised in the local context, thus making the kid feel awkward because he knows it wasn't a great showing but can't say that without being ungracious or rude. Yet if he doesn't minimize it or demur a little, he may be viewed as conceited. Tough balance to find.</p>
<p>"If your kid has been the subject of other people's snide comments growing up, I wouldn't think that having that kid end up in a small Honors program at State U where they were easily identifiable as elite or special, would necessarily be a good thing."
Not been a problem here. My son loves where he is and mixes easily with honors and non-honors kids. Says it's not a big deal at all. He reports that professors pay attention to this more than anyone else.</p>
<p>I have 3 kids - the oldest is quite bright and quite confident. The second is a top musician. The third is the little sister who feels like she's supposed to somehow live up to one or the other, or both, of her brothers. So the downside in our family comes with being the sibling of a superstar. She idolizes them, and doesn't seem to resent a bit of their success. She just would like to share it.</p>
<p>My boys are comfortable in their own skin, and each tends to be competitive only with himself. They've had minor problems with resentment or competitiveness, but don't really feel it because that is not where their focus is.</p>
<p>My D, on the otherhand, not only puts a lot of perfectionism on herself, but she tends to be the target of folks who are jealous of her siblings. Or people who have expectations of her, due to her siblings. She is much more sensitive to it, and it's been hard to watch. It's okay, though, because she is also learning to set her own goals and not worry about other people's responses.</p>
<p>I was talking with her and a friend after their prom, about the same kids being chosen for prom king and queen that have won just about every title since Miss Freshmen.... They were happy about the boy who won. He is charming and disarming, and has a zillion friends. They were happy with the girl who won, because she's NOT one of the most popular win-everything kids. One of the runners up is a girl who gets mad when she doesn't win, and becomes highly indignant or blames the process. Like someone posted earlier, I think the irritation comes with the ones who are arrogant and self-serving. We all know people like that.</p>
<p>And I also think it is very hard for parents (or perhaps only for me) to distance myself from my kids' achievements. I guess I believe that if I had nothing to do with it at all, we may as well have baby factories instead of families. On the otherhand, I also know that since I do not want to be held responsible for every mistake they make, neither can I take credit for every success. </p>
<p>As a caveat, I think my kids might not really fit in this thread, because they are not trifectas. They each have an area where they shine - maybe more than one. But each is also very aware of their weaknesses and shortcomings, and is quick to appreciate the athlete or artist or something else that they are not.</p>
<p>GFG, I know you started the thread in good faith, and are not trying to brag or hold delusional opinions of your kids. Jealous people stink! And every school or activity has a "top," so a kid doesn't have to be an Olympic athlete to face jealousy.</p>
<p>Parents care deeply, in the case of limited spots, when their kids are overlooked. I'm seeing it on d's lax team, where an outstanding soph is the star (99 goals already) and a less talented junior & her family are deeply resentful. The junior's parents sit tight lipped, barely clapping for anyone who is outshining their d on the field. (And that's quite a few players, by the way.) Dad is filming d for college coaches, which proves how delusional he is. That ain't happening.....and it's obviously eating away at him & his daughter. D says the junior has a really bad attitude because she's not starting. I'm sure the coach is impressed!</p>
<p>My d has a couple friends who've made All-states in their sport & not even mentioned it at the lunch table. Nobody knows until it is announced by the administration. I've always pointed out how much happier she feels for humble friends, so it's best to act in the same way. Don't blow your own horn. The bragging kids are well known, and the kooky parents are, as well. So I really wouldn't worry that your kids are seen as the problem.</p>
<p>Sorry about my snappy comment. My point is that it is a continuum. There will always be someone better/someone worse and it just shouldn't/doesn't matter what anyone else says, thinks or expects of your student. This happens at all levels and all ages of academics, music, sports and careers.</p>
<p>it just shouldn't matter</p>
<p>some kids have a true competitive nature. there is a desire within themselves to strive to be the best whether it's their performance in athletics or success in the classroom, etc. they are driven.</p>
<p>My D is a very talented actress and singer, and when she did not get the lead in the spring musical, I felt my inner mother lion awaken. D had a great attitude about her much smaller part, although I know she was hurt by not getting the lead - I wanted to kneecap the director and the other girl. In the theater world, though, you can't look to statistics to determine who is the best - it's so subjective. But I only feel resentful if someone less talented (or in this case, talented but completely wrong for the part) gets more attention and accolades and preference over my kid. Yes, I am bitter. Yes, I kept my opinion to myself. </p>
<p>If a child is legitimately the best, I might admire them, but generally speaking, I want my kids to reach for their personal best, wherever that may be.</p>
<p>As far as mediocre performances being overly praised: So what? Every compliment should be accepted with a smile and a thank-you. Doesn't matter if it was up to your standards or not. And as for complimenting the friend who is improving, but still not fantastic, that's easy, too. Just say, "Nice job on your intonation" or "Great heads up on that turn over." Whatever was worthy of notice or praise.</p>
<p>Condor, in your experience do people usually view that competitive nature as a positive, good thing or as a selfish, negative quality?</p>
<p>I have a friend who considers it a moral failing to want to win. Why? Because if you want to win, by extension you must be wanting someone else to lose and that's uncharitable. She's a sweet person, but I know she thinks my D has a character flaw for wanting to win.</p>
<p>"Parents care deeply, in the case of limited spots"</p>
<p>That's what started the whole drama with my daughter. The other girl (who is a perfectly lovely girl, by the way) and Zoosersister were 1-2 in their school (the other girl ended up 1 because ZS slacked), but ZS ended up receiving many unexpected opportunities, accolades, etc. (scholarships and admissions to extremely prestigious high school programs in NYC) that had never been received before in the history of their school, so the school made a huge deal out of each event and there were many. The mother of the other girl, who worked in the school, was eaten up with envy and, I think, fear because her daughter got NO opportunities whatsoever. They had very high expectations, but nothing happened for the girl and the mother got desperate and lashed out at my daughter. Part of the problem was that their expectations were not realistic. The daughter had excellent grades because her mother worked in the school and the teachers felt sorry because the girl had no friends (because the mother helicoptered all day every day), but she tanked on standardized tests and other measures outside of the school's immediate control. Which set the mother up for huge disappointment that ate at her for a long time. Sometimes when there really is only one piece of pie, conflict can arise.</p>
<p>The problem with "wanting to win" is that it usually means wanting to win in a game that has been defined and is being judged by others. When you want to "win", almost by definition you are going to shape your behavior to societal norms, which may be transient or in some cases misguided. </p>
<p>A concrete example: Emily Dickinson. Her poetry has far greater value, at least to us, than that of all but a couple of her contemporaries, in part because she had absolutely no interest in "winning" in the poetry field of her time. Had she been smarter, better adjusted, more competitive -- in other words, a winner -- she would have written down to the standards of the times.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sometimes when there really is only one piece of pie, conflict can arise.
[/quote]
This makes me want to coin some cheesy new phrase, like "If there's only one piece of pie, then bake another pie!" And put it on a poster with two kittens chasing a ball of yarn. But the idea is one that makes life more pleasant & less stressful.</p>
<p>GFG: I think most people are very willing to admire a competitive nature, until that competitor is beating their kids. Parents can really lose sight of the big picture, can't they?</p>
<p>Sax - I don't know if your earlier comment was "snappy", but it was certainly spot-on. Life's a journey. Today's high school star athlete/homecoming king might end up pumping gas into the Mercedes of the team manager/wallflower ten years from now. Let your kids enjoy what they have, be it at the top of the heap or the middle - they probably are less concerned than you are. Twenty years from now you won't relally care that they had a bit role and not the lead twenty years earlier; neither will they. And if other parents are jealous of your child's abilities or accomplishment, let them stew.</p>
<p>I agree JHS!</p>
<p>
[quote]
The problem with "wanting to win" is that it usually means wanting to win in a game that has been defined and is being judged by others.
[/quote]
JHS, I actually believe that most winners have only been able to summon the determination to meet their goals because they truly believe in the worth of that goal. Afterall, if every CC poster was conforming to societal norms, we'd be out earning, earning earning, and not posting, posting, posting. Does that make us all losers? I think most personal goals have been adjusted to meet reality, value systems, and energy/talent levels.</p>
<p>Kids, however, often have those goals set by their parents, which is a cause for much conflict.</p>
<p>gfg,
that's hard to answer. it's sometimes more a lack of understanding that the kids themselves have a very competitive nature, the desire to be the best. at times some people may be unaware just how driven certain kids can be. for these kids, they hate to lose more than they like to win. it's a character trait that they have. it's not something forced upon them by pushy parents or coaches.</p>