dropping a class

Parents Forum
1

<p>I hope people who think that kids who do poorly in a class aren't studying will pay attention to this-.</p>

<p>My daughter- who attended an " alternative" middle school wanted to attend one of the most academic public high schools in the city.</p>

<p>She tested in at below grade level math freshman year- despite never having gotten below a B in high school.
But to cut to the chase, she is now a senior and in pre-calc and taking algebra based physics. However, most of the students in her class, took pre-calc last year & they are still having trouble. Her teacher is brand new, first year teaching, and because my D is having a lot of problems with her class, even though she does all the work and doesn't miss class, she has been staying after school to get extra help from the teacher on homework assignments.</p>

<p>The kicker is, she is flunking the class. She is doing well on most of the labs and the classwork, but even though she is having help from the teacher for homework, she is getting no credit on significant homework assignments.
Ive tried to talk to the teacher- she initially was responsive a few months ago, and I thought they had worked out a strategy.
But she is still flunking & even though she has a 504 for math ( and physics is almost all math), she isn't allowed any additional assignments to bring her grade up.
So she is changing her class next semester from algebra based physics to practical physics.
I am fine with that. It is a different instructor- who is more experienced & even though his other class is calculus based physics, I think she will get a better foundation.</p>

<p>But how much can be explained in her college applications?
She is planning on being a science major- and will need physics for her degree, but she also will be able to take a lighter load due to learning disabilities & Im sure she will do fine even if it takes 6 years to graduate. ( it also will help to be at a school where there is more than one teacher per class)
But she got an A in a tough chemistry course the year before & while she thought about taking AP chem, she took physics instead because that was an area she hadn't had yet ( and because Dr P was still there when she registered- who was one of the top science teachers in the city- however this year he is teaching in San Francisco)</p>

<p>Her chem teacher has been writing recommendations for her, and I am sure they are great, but should I stress that her high school counselor mention anything about how hard she worked in the physics class despite the low grade? I wanted to find out if there was anyway she could do extra to have her schedule changed to reflect a year of practical physics instead of switching mid year- but I wanted to find out more first from parents and teachers, because her high school counselor is stretched pretty thin- plus it is also obvious that he is either putting out fires, and she isnt' burning, or he is concerned that the star students are appropriately placed.</p>

<p>I understand his limited time, so if I can lay out a plan and all he has to do is sign off on it- it probably has a better chance of getting approved than if I want him to come up with something.
After all - all year I have been asking for a SIT meeting and havent gotten one ( except to tell me that the psych doesn't think she qualifies to have an IEP- even though she had one till 9th grade)</p>

2

<p>UGH. This is a tough one. Will the low grade be on her transcript? Or does she receive a year-long grade for the second semester combined/averaged with first semester physics?</p>

<p>I ask this specifically because the public district we are in a student only receives a year-long grade for any one subject. We are on 4X4 block so a year-long class such as physics is given in one semester and students receive only 1 letter grade for the class rather than 2 semester grades.</p>

<p>If the case is such that it is a 2 semester grade transcript and you are worried about the grade, I might advise having her take a physics class at the local community college. In the 3 states my kiddos' have attended for high school all 3 allowed them to "replace" and/or "average" a community college class for a high school class, in particular those attending public schools.</p>

<p>However, if this class will not keep her from being admitted to her prospective schools then maybe an explanation from the GC would satisfy. Depending on what the GC says. And that is a BIG IF.</p>

<p>The advantage to the cc class is that if she feels over head she can withdraw from that class and it not be on her high school transcript and if she does so within the proper time frame it will also not be on the community college transcript either.</p>

<p>And how low of a grade are we talking about?</p>

<p>Kat</p>

3

<p>I am pretty sure that each semester is shown seperately.
Right now she is getting a D- she recieved a D for first semester & the end of the semester is just in a few weeks and I don't see how her grade will change from now until then
At her school a D isn't passing-
Some of her homework assignments were weighted 20 pts for example- but she only received 3 pts- so that is the same as getting no credit at all.
No credit is given for participation.
And she is already apparently doing OK on tests, which is the only area where make up work is allowed.</p>

<p>Oh that is a good idea about the CC class, I didn't think of that, thanks</p>

4

<p>Hmmm, a responsible hard-working student gets good grades in Chemistry and Math but a horrible grade in Physics --- yup, the teacher's teaching style doesn't match the student's learning style. </p>

<p>I like the idea of re-taking Physics with a different teacher, and I like the idea of taking Physics at a local CC. What I like best is showing prospective colleges that your D isn't going to be stopped by one difficult situation --- that instead she has the drive to get past that and succeed.</p>

5

<p>EK4---I have a physics teaching certification and found that persistence really makes a difference with physics. IT IS NOT ALL MATH although that's the public perception and I'm afraid many teachers teach it that way.</p>

<p>I don't know what text your daughter is using, but if you can, see if you can beg borrow or otherwise obtain the Conceptual Physics videos. I know the King County library system used to have them but that was a while back... I'm not seeing them on a quick search, but UW might have them. Paul Hewitt is the author. </p>

<p>I'm also fond of the Cartoon Guide to Physics, Gonick is the author.</p>

6

<p>If she has a 504 for math, isn't the school legally required to give her some accommodations? Maybe you could you go back to the person who tested her for the math LD and have them write another letter about how the LD is having an impact on her work in physics.</p>

<p>If other students are having trouble too, that's a sign that could be part of the problem. Unfortunately often the good math and physics teachers don't stay in the public schools; they can make so much more elsewhere. If the teacher is helping her with the homework assignments, then why is she still getting a 3 out of 20? If there is a science department chair or team leader, maybe it would be worth talking to that person.</p>

7

<p>EK
My suggestions are to take physics at CC, or find a course on-line. My S did this; besides scheduling problems, the teacher would have been teaching physics for first time.</p>

8

<p>Bookworm that was a big factor in this I think.
This teacher was not only new to the school, but she was new to teaching- it is her first year.
It also is her 1st period class, starts at 7:40 am, so probably not the optimum time for either the teacher or the students.</p>

<p>I know that she should be getting more support from the school- her counselor is also the 504 coordinator & I have asked many times for more accommodations, but they keep telling me she doesn't need any.
( but I can go back to the educational psych who did the testing- I had to go outside the district to get any at all)</p>

<p>The book also seems to be part of the problem- I did some research and others have said that even if you know physics it is confusing- so I imagine for a first year teacher- it is difficult to work with.</p>

<p>I am going to look at the CC class schedule- I don't think online would work- although it might, since she does better with hands on labs.</p>

<p>Thanks for the feedback I'll keep you posted.</p>

9

<p>I don't understand the suggestion of taking a class on-line or at a CC. Are we assuming that CC classes are easier then HS ones? Aren't physics classes that are taught at college one semester while they are a full year at a High School? And if a student is already struggling with a class and is having tutoring, is she really a candidate for an on-line class? CC classes are often suggested on this forum to replace HS classes but people I know that have taken classes at our CC have said that many are just as rigorous as those at a four year university - not a slam dunk for a student that's already having problems.</p>

<p>I think taking the easier physics class for second semester is the best idea and having the GC write an explanation to include with the transcripts would work.</p>

10

<p>I don't think the issue is of level of work- I think that the issue is - a difficult time- before 8am- when studies have shown teens perform better when school isn't so early.
Also exacerbating the confusing text, is that the teacher is in the first year of teaching & so doesn't have the skills and resources for example as her chem instructor she had last year and in whose class she got an A.
Depending on the style of teaching- a CC class may be either more difficult or more understandable for her.</p>

<p>One of the problems of textbooks in our district is that a certain company which has bad reviews of its science textbooks, is the one that the district uses.
Experienced teachers- often have other texts, that they supplement the district course material with. But a brand new teacher- is not going to have those resources. In the community college, instructors can choose their own course material.</p>

11

<p>Have you talked to the assistant principal or principal about this? At the public HS my D's went to the GCs really don't have much power and don't get involved in teacher issues - that seems to be the job of the principals. You could discuss a few things with them - </p>

<ul>
<li>The 502 point</li>
<li>The fact that your D did okay in her other classes</li>
<li>The fact that other kids seem to be struggling with this physics teacher (check on this fact first since maybe they'll come back and say the other kids are doing okay)</li>
<li>The fact that this is a first year teacher and probably isn't accustomed to the 'real world' of teaching HS students and may know nothing about learning disabilities. This would have to be played carefully. </li>
</ul>

<p>It'd be interesting to see what the grade distribution is like for that class. The principal/AP should be able to see this. Be firm and controlled but persistent.</p>

12

<p>EK4, I was in a similar situation as your daughter. Senior, great grades in everything, except Physics. I considered dropping the course, but I decided to stick with it rather than explain a withdrawn on my transcript.</p>

<p>For me, I had a difficult time adjusting to my teacher's teaching style, which was a lot of "independent student work," which doesn't help someone, like me, who is not a natural physicist. :)</p>

<p>I'm doing much better now because I just needed some time to figure it all out: the teacher, the class, structure of tests/homework, and physics itself.</p>

<p>Unlike math and chemistry, physics needs common sense. For example, it wouldn't make sense if you calculated the acceleration of a raft going downstream as 12.9 m/s/s, because that's faster than gravity.</p>

<p>You just have to find your own way of studying for physics. Make sure to understand the concepts first and then do a bunch of problems.</p>

<p>My textbook is "Physics" by Cutnell & Johnson. I have the 5th edition, but it goes up to 7th now. (I go to public school.) I really like it and recommend it. It has great problems and many examples that illustrate the concepts and also the method of solving the problems. I also used the Schaum's physics books for a while because they have a lot of problems w/ the solutions, which was helpful for seeing the way to work out problems.</p>

<p>Many physics teachers put their stuff online, you can easily find great online resources via google. You should also check out the online companion websites that usually go with a textbook. They can be a hidden jewel. Too bad most kids forget to use them.</p>

<p>My teacher is a cranky man who hates kids. No exaggeration, he tells us he hates us and means it. There a lot of crappy teachers nowadays, but I'm not sure it's always so fair or accurate to blame the teacher. I doubt that everyone in the class is doing poorly because there are always some kids who ace everything or just naturally understand a subject. And I'm wicked jealous of those kids. :D</p>

<p>Also, the early time slot is a poor excuse. Even if school started later, there will always be "first-period class" syndrome. Just like there is "last-period...on a (anyday of the week) syndrome" or even "period before lunch syndrome." Its better to not even attempt to use this as an explanation for struggling in a class.</p>

<p>Your daughter shouldn't have a problem with the math in physics because its algebra-based, meaning you shouldn't need anything more advanced than algebra and basic geometry (sin/cos/tan). I'm in AP Calc this year, and I haven't had to use anything from Pre-Calc or Calc for physics. You could use calculus on some problems, but in algebra-based, it isn't even necessarily easier to use calculus.</p>

<p>I'm not sure CC (community college) would help. It might actually be harder since professors can be even less accessible. Also, HS students that use CC usually have a good understanding of the subject. I haven't really heard of anyone going to CC to take a class b/c they didn't get it in their HS one.</p>

<p>Anyways, I'd recommend my textbook and there is even a student manual that goes with it, but my school is too cheap to buy it. Schaum's has numerous physics books. Physicsforums.com is a good website. And just do PROBLEMS. I can spend a whole day doing problems in preparation for a test. It takes up a lot of time b/c I'm really busy with other hw/college stuff/work, but you gotta do what you gotta do. And I know that even the kids who "get" physics easily spend a lot of time working on problems.</p>

<p>That's the only way to learn. Also, tell your daughter not to let her teacher get to her. I hated my physics teacher for a while, but it's better to just work hard on you own and go to your teacher for explanations of stuff that you really don't understand. I sometimes go before or after school or during study if I have it free. Going for extra help shows effort, which any teacher, old and young, appreciates. My teacher told me to leave him alone once, but I'm sure your daughter won't have this problem, since her teacher isn't the Grinch.</p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

13

<p>She doesn't hate the physics teacher- I think she recognizes that the teacher is trying, but that she is overwhelmed with the number of classes she has to teach. ( 5) Her school has three physics classes. Practical- Algebra based & Calculus based.
However the way they teach math for many students is that it is "integrated" & depending on their previous teacher- the spiral method of instruction may have left long standing gaps.
She isn't the only one that is having trouble with the algebra based course & the students in another teachers algebra based course are also having difficulty. Many of her friends however- have already had calculus and so are in the calculus based physics course. ( or they aren't taking physics- I think you only need two years of science for graduation )</p>

<p>I haven't said anything to the principal, he does't quite understand what learning disabilties mean- legally.
For example- she had an IEP in middle school, but I had her exit the program in 8th grade, because at her previous school- her resource room time was spent doing homework, while the teacher worked on reading with the other students.
However, when she started high school, I wanted her reassessed to have an IEP so that she could get appropriate support- even though the psychologist at the high school, knew her from elementary and middle school, he said she didn't need an IEP.
Additionally, the principal asserts that if she has an IEP, then she needs to take "special education courses" i.e. below grade level.</p>

<p>All the classes have 32 students & even though she is flunking physics, she still has a 3.2 GPA- and is on track to graduate, so she isn't really someone they are concerned about. They are more concerned about the kids who are in gangs or not coming to school. Two teens in Seattle high schools were murdered in separate incidents ( one within blocks of Ds school) within the past week or so. I realize that resources are stretched thin.</p>

<p>This next week there is a meeting of the Seattle special education PTA- which I have been tangentially involved with , mainly because I know parents with high needs kids- do not have time & energy to be represented in public meetings. However- at this meeting not only are they discussing transitioning for kids exiting high schools, but the new superintendent of the district will be there & I plan to have lots of information for her ;)</p>

14

<p>I was a special ed teacher for 9 years and the "fact" of a kid having an IEP requires him or her to be enrolled in remedial "special ed" classes is a new one to me...If that were true, every parent of a gifted kid would be screaming in the office.</p>

<p>As for the SIT and IEP, if your daughter last had services in 8th grade, she may not eligible unless she is re-tested. I know that's how it works here. Once a kid is out of program for any reason, they can't come back if their original testing is more than 3 years old. A new full re-eval has to be done. (And if your district is anything like ours, it will be very reluctant to spend money doing an eval on second semester senior who's on track to graduate.) </p>

<p>I also want to make a couple of comments about the physics. (I feel I have some authority here--I've lived with a physicist for 30 years. And D1 is about to graduate w/ a physics degree and head off to physics grad school. D2, like your daughter, is senior and is struggling w/ physics, but hers is calc based. BTW, D1 and D2 both are LD. D1 is also ADHD.)</p>

<p>First of all, physics is not all about the math. It's more of way of conceptualizing the world and way of approaching problems. It's a mindset that takes some time, effort and deep thought to achieve. You can't just sit down and knock out the problems. You first have to really think about what the problem is actually asking. That's probably the hardest part and where most kids have the most issues.</p>

<p>D2 finds physics infinitely frustrating for this reason--it's not the math; it's a way of thinking about the world that doesn't comes naturally to her. (D1 would argue that it doesn't come naturally to anyone...)</p>

<p>Another thing that can be a problem for kids (esp. LD kids) is that while the math used in math class and physics class is the same, physics often uses a different set of terminologies. It can be confusing.</p>

<p>D2 has a brand new teacher this year w/ no previous teaching experience. He's trying to finish his doctoral dissertation/research AND teach high school at the same time. He has no idea what he's doing. D2 burst into tears when she got her first test back (it was that bad) and he hasn't called on her in class since. Because he's only half-time, he's not there after school or during her free period to give homework help. </p>

<p>What's worked best for D2 is to work in study groups. (This was D1's suggestion. More eyes on the problem, more ideas on how to approach it. D1 swears that how she's made as far as she has in physics.)</p>

15

<p>oh I know way out west mom- but it just didn't seem to worth arguing about.</p>

<p>D attended a private school for K-2, because of special needs that the district didn't seem able to meet. However- the district did test her- but because they would have required her to take a taxi to the school to get services- we didn't have her use them although she qualified. ( she also had extreme anxiety- she didn't get in the car with her dad 1/2 the time- if she was in a taxi with a cigar smoking man who was unfamiliar to her she was liable to jump out at a stop light)</p>

<p>When she started public school in 3rd grade, she had once a day pullout & Mr T. was the psych. This school went through several principal changes, and even though she was "getting services" I also was paying for her to have outside tutoring. At the same school, when she was in 7th grade, she was losing an elective period for resource room that wasn't addressing her needs. Communication in the school & the district was horrible & at the beginning of 8th grade ( Mr T the psych had gone abroad), I had her removed from the IEP. I tried to make it clear, that I wasn't removing her because I thought her learning disabilties had vanished, but that it was a waste of her time. They didn't argue & they tested her, but they would not give me the tests & they could not show that she no longer had need.
( since they had tested her the year before & she tested at 2% of grade level, that would have been unlikely)</p>

<p>In 9th grade, I asked to have her tested- but the psych said she didn't need it because her grades were good. ( she was flunking tests, but the teachers were giving her extra work to bring her grade up- the psych was only looking at the semester grade)
They also didn't want to give her a 504.
I paid out of pocket an outside education psych to test her and write up what she needed when she was in 10th grade. The school still didn't want to give her an IEP, but we were able to get her classes to work somewhat because of extra work by D and the teachers. We also got a 504- but never had a SIT meeting.
In 11th grade, she had the third counselor in three years- which was frustrating, because the previous two, I had slowly built up a workable relationship with & now we had to start all over. The counselor & the psych again agreed she didn't need testing and didn't need an IEP. ( even with the test scores from the outside eval. College board even gave her more accommodations than she receives at school with the outside eval)
In 12th grade- Mr T is now the psych at the highschool, I had hopes that he would recognize the ongoing issues, but he also says she doesn't need more testing or an IEP- even though her LD obviously isn't going away.</p>

<p>Ive been reading about having physics in 9th grade making more sense for the way kids learn. THat is actually how her sister had it at her private school. 9th grade conceptual physics, 10th grade chem, 11th grade biology inc genetics- and 12th grade I think she had marine biology.</p>

<p>I haven't taken physics but I do a bit of lay reading & I mostly just want D#2 to get more comfortable so that she can take it in college.
Since I haven't been able to get them to even have a yearly SIT meeting with her teachers at her highschool for her 504, I know they aren't going to start now- but I am going to get her retested ( by the outside psych) so she can have an updated assessment for college.</p>

<p>But I hope that the new superintendent is open to addressing needs of kids who are bright but have learning style differences or disabilties. There are so many kids who aren't getting served & they really can make a contribution to society.</p>

<p>( Actually that is why our oldest attended private school from K-12- the public school wants students to be two years above grade level for gifted program in everything- or two years below in everything to get help- if you are unevenly "special", you get pushed to the middle- yes I know that isn't how the law works, but they have found that it is easier and cheaper to let parents sue them and wait for the court to order accomodations, than to simply provide them in the first place.
This was quoted to me by a current district board member- who was relating what the school district attorney told her- from my difficulty getting minimum needs met after 10 years in the school district- I believe it)</p>

16

<p>Well then, you know how th buereaucracy works...</p>

<p>Our state originally opted out of all federal spec ed funding because it was cheaper to forego the federal $$ than to provide adequate services. It took a class action lawsuit, 3+ years of litigation and a multi-million settlement to make them change their mind. And services still aren't where they ought to be.</p>

17

<p>"First of all, physics is not all about the math. It's more of way of conceptualizing the world and way of approaching problems. It's a mindset that takes some time, effort and deep thought to achieve. You can't just sit down and knock out the problems. You first have to really think about what the problem is actually asking. That's probably the hardest part and where most kids have the most issues.</p>

<p>D2 finds physics infinitely frustrating for this reason--it's not the math; it's a way of thinking about the world that doesn't comes naturally to her. (D1 would argue that it doesn't come naturally to anyone...)"</p>

<p>I'm not sure if this was in response to my post. But I want to clarify.</p>

<p>I never stated that physics is just about math and if you refer back to my post, you'll see that I said the concepts need to be learned first and then practice by doing problems. I also said physics is challenging because it requires common sense, something most kids wouldn't be used to applying to a problem.</p>

<p>Also, physics does come naturally to some people. I know many kids who just "see" a physics concept from a certain perspective naturally. This probably isn't true to most people, but there are definitely people who are natural physicists.</p>

<p>Just wanted share my opinion, since first term I was getting a D (62, specifically) and now I'm acing Physics.</p>

<p>Hope everything works out, EK4.</p>