<p>"Both my S and her D are being pressured big time to do it. I really don’t understand why these counselors and teachers tell the kids that they will get into any school they want and that they must do the IB. "</p>
<p>They pressure students to do IB because it’s an extremely expensive program, and unless enough students enroll in it and get the IB diploma, it’s unlikely your school system will continue to fund it. Also, only a small proportion of students have the brains and work ethics to get the IB diploma, so the GCs and teachers put heavy pressure on those students to be involved. Important to realize that in this case, the GC and teachers are pressuring your child for the sake of the IB program, not for the sake of your student’s best interests.</p>
<p>Northstarmom makes an extremely important point.</p>
<p>The priorities of counselors/administrators in schools/systems that have IB programs do not necessarily coincide with those of the students. </p>
<p>The schools want successful IB programs – defined as IB programs with sufficient enrollment to justify their existence and with high rates of students obtaining the IB diploma.</p>
<p>The students want to get decent GPAs, SAT/ACT scores, and SAT Subject Test scores; get into colleges they like, perhaps with merit scholarship money; maybe place out of a few introductory courses in college; and have a reasonably tolerable existence in high school.</p>
<p>These are very different sets of priorities.</p>
<p>Northstarmom & Marian: I wish I had thought about the school funding and the counselors’ priority when my D had applied for the IB program several years ago. Maybe she would have enjoyed hs. My S is such a happy & smart kid, I don’t want to see him drown in paperwork. I do, however, think it helped her in some way. She didn’t have an intense EC or anything, so for her, good thing.</p>
<p>In terms of college acceptances, it seems to me that the question for the OP is, “Will your GCs identify your S as among the to students in his class if he doesn’t do IB, or will they only “push” for IB kids for admission to the most selective schools.” </p>
<p>At some schools, the GCs will only really get behind a select few kids. Others, often more intelligent and talented, get second class treatment. It is short-sighted and foolish, but it happens. The most selective colleges may not care whether the kid did IB or AP, but they WILL care if the kid is not presented as one of the jewels of his class. I hate to be so cynical, and I would hope that your HS does not have that kind of dynamic.</p>
<p>This doesn’t mean that you should pressure your S into IB, as the stories here amply illustrate, but it does mean that you should make the decision with your eyes open.</p>
<p>pebbles, IB can be a great thing. My D is a senior now and handed in her extended essay two days ago. It has been a totally positive experience for her because IB is perfectly suited to her interests. It wouldn’t have been right for my older D, who went the AP route. That was perfect for her. NSM and Marian are telling you what I would have if I had gotten here first! The school absolutely has a horse in the race of how many kids (and which kids, which is sometimes a dirty, little secret) do the full IB program and parents have to remember that the school’s interest may not be the same as the family’s and act in the child’s best interests. I said befoe that I applaud your son for his decision. It seems a very well-thought out and carefully-articulated one. You seem to agree with it. That’s all that matters. Don’t let anyone push your son into doing something not right for him for their benefit. Life is too darn short for that and, frankly, a reasonable young man would be resentful if he were pushed to do the IB program against his will. It’s a great program, but it’s only worthwhile if the student wants it.</p>
<p>I think the HS ranking system makes the counselors encourage good students to take many AP and IB classes since the number of Ap or IB tests per senior is an important statistic in the rankings…even better if the kid is likely to get 4 or 5s. I didn’t understand why my S was encouraged to take 3 AP/IB classes sophmore year (and the IB cert in the class doesn’t count for the certificate if you take it 10th grade!) and then all AP/IB for 11th and 12th. when I suggested a normal or accelerated science or history to give S a more doable schedule they always said he wouldn’t get into a “top school”. Even worse, they encourage the middle-class kids to take both AP and IB tests for calculus, physics, etc so that “they maximize chances of college credit”. I think that is baloney…when my son takes 9 exams in one year and passes them all it helps the average of the whole school and there must be 30-40 students like him at the school. That group, along with juniors and sophomors taking tests, means that at a school with 400 seniors there are probably over 800 ap and ib exams taken and they generally pass most of them (unlike many schools almost all our full IB students actually get the certificate). Forget the fact that 300 of the 400 probably never take an IB or AP exam or class. All you see are these great AP/IB numbers and combined with the fact that 50% of the school is low income–it looks like a miracle school on paper but it is a small segment that is getting the really great education. I am very resentful of these rankings distorting the incentives at the school instead of making sure every kid gets a shot at college prep classes to see if college could be part of their future.</p>
<p>“All you see are these great AP/IB numbers and combined with the fact that 50% of the school is low income–”</p>
<p>That’s the way it was in my sons’ school that had an IB magnet program. 1/5 of the students were in IB. The rest were struggling to graduate from high school. GCs felt it was a triumph if students got GEDs. Yet, the school was listed in America’s top high schools. </p>
<p>I didn’t see how having the IB program helped the rest of the school at all except to make their graduation rate and other stats look better. The IB students also had their own wing and had little interaction with the other students.</p>
Same here and I ask that question all the time. but to be completely crass about it, my kid has benefited enormously. There are all sorts of grants, opportunities and awards for kids from low income, racially diverse public schools and it’s the IB kids in our school who get them all. Despite the fact that the IB progam is comprised of kids who are generally neither low income nor minority.</p>
<p>Consolation: that is exactly what I am concerned about. He has the opportunity to request the same IB counselor or switch to another one. I wonder if the new counselor will not bother pushing for S. If S requests to stay with the IB counselor, I wonder if she will push for S or not mark “took most demanding academic program” on the school recommend form at admissions time.</p>
<p>We went through the same decision process with our son two years ago. We wanted him to do IB but didn’t push it. When he was trying to decide, he talked to seniors who had just finished the IB program and a lot of them told him it wasn’t worth the time and effort. At our school the AP and IB students are in the same class (most of the time; TOK being the obvious exception), so they are being taught the same thing but the IB students have to do a lot more work. My son ultimately decided against the IB program.</p>
<p>At our school, both AP students and IB students get the ‘most demanding academic program’ designation. Although, it is not easy to qualify to take the AP classes and you are required to take the AP exam.</p>
<p>Of the kids in my son’s senior class, none of the half-dozen that gotten in or will probably get into the Ivies are in the IB program. The colleges really don’t seem to distinguish between a good IB student and a good AP student.</p>
<p>The only reason, IMHO, to do the IB program is because the program is a good fit and meets your particular academic needs. If a student is doing it in hopes that it will get him or her into a ‘better’ college, they will usually be disappointed. At the end of the day, it’s more about GPAs and test scores and taking a demanding curriculum.</p>
<p>RobD: I didn’t know a student could quit IB after junior year. I would think that would be a disaster since they wouldn’t have the HL credits and very little (if any) AP credit.</p>
<p>S2 is currently a senior at a nationally ranked, selective admit IB program. He tells prospective students that IB “will not necessarily get you into an Ivy League school, but it WILL prepare you to do well at a very academically challenging place like the Ivy League schools.”</p>
<p>BTW, S and his friends call IB English “crimes against literature” for the way works are dissected and analyzed to a fare-thee-well, and where the kids are expected to extrapolate meanings that the author surely couldn’t have foreseen. </p>
<p>If your kid is not into the IB and all it entails, and can take however many APs he wants and will be happy, balanced and sane, let him make the choice. Even the ones who wanted IB and still would not change things have a tough time, ESPECIALLY senior year. </p>
<p>Agree with Marite that IB’s strengths are the humanities/social sciences (at least at S2’s program) and that AP is stronger in science/math. For that reason, my older S refused to consider IB and went to another school where AP was the baseline competency and there were many courses offered beyond that.</p>
<p>RobD asked me about IB the other night and I wrote a lengthy reply, so I will go find that post and reprint it here.</p>
<p>That “perfect storm of stress” led to a spate of migraines and meltdowns in recent weeks. </p>
<p>Will IB get your kid into an Ivy? Don’t know. Mine chose not to apply to any. There are some schools that really like IB kids, but since it is still a relatively uncommon program, the “benchmark” still tends to be AP. If your kid takes six AP courses during HS and has a lot of outside interests (and the time to do them well), he’ll be as competitive as if he had taken IB. Can’t imagine a kid who has taken six APs not getting “most rigorous,” though I have heard of instances here on CC. If you think your S’s GC would look unfavorably upon him for opting out of IB, I’d insist on another GC who will look at his record for what he DOES accomplish. IB at S2’s schools does get the automatic “most rigorous” designation, but if he were not in IB, he’d still have taken a lot of APs (World History and Comp Gov’t being the two he missed out on taking) and gotten the designation that way.</p>
<p>At S2’s school, there are some classes which are AP/IB so there is sufficient enrollment to offer both. He may find there is relatively little difference between the courses, depending on subject. For example, S2’s SL Spanish was AP/IB Spanish at Level V. The AP and IB has slightly different emphases on which skills were tested, but S did well on both exams. His AP/IB Enviro class was combined; he took it as an AP soph year (since he can’t take IB Enviro and HL Bio) and the only difference was the lab notebooks the IB students had to maintain. He took AP/SL Econ, and then the SL Econ exam and both AP Econ exams to ensure he’d get college credit/placement. Math Studies students at his school actually cover the IB Math Studies curriculum soph year, then take AP Calc junior year (generally AB) and take the SL exam (and be finished with math). Alternatively, they can take BC Calc or AP Stat senior year, along with the SL Math Studies exam.</p>
<p>Pebbles, I hope you will take a moment to grump at the school counselors. They need to be reminded that they are in a significant position of power. What can seem like words of encouragement or information can come across to a teen like Words of the Oracle or Advice from God. </p>
<p>This may be an excellent opportunity to talk to DS about his own feelings about not wanting to “disappoint” his parents, teachers, counselors. Sometimes teens go down roads that don’t suit them because they don’t know how to say “no” (or, even better, “No, thank you.”!).</p>
<p>D had a choice of 2 public high schools-- one IB, one not-- I looked pretty closely and it seemed the IB kids were going to lesser colleges in spite of the school’s great reputation. IB is great for some kids, but it wouldn’t have been for D, and sounds like not for the OP’s son either.</p>
<p>You know, our school website showed the IB kids (about 10 of them) from last year coming back to receive their IB diplomas. I was very surprised - several of them took gap years, several went to international colleges (we have a large international population in our area - and the IB program attracts some of those students for obvious reasons) and the remaining didn’t go anywhere special; I don’t think there was a top 10 school among them.</p>
<p>Sometimes, I think at our school, it’s not the best and brightest who choose IB but those students who are hoping to get a ‘boost’ into a better ranked college. OR they are pushed by their parents (see this a lot). Our HS is very academically competitive to begin with, so IB isn’t necessary the most academically rigorous choice available to the students (although, it’s one of the academically rigorous routes, for sure.)</p>
<p>I’ve always been a big proponent of IB - especially for kids in our public schools who need a challenge but I don’t see it as the only route to a rigorous curriculum. Nor do I see it giving kids a leg up on college admissions. Actually, I think that’s a shame because a lot of IB kids work much harder than the average AP student and probably end up with a much better HS education.</p>
<p>I am a senior in the IB program at my school and we have both IB and AP programs available. There are some people who are just better with AP and like the standard class format and taking evaluations following the class. IB is great in the fact that it shows growth and it is such a dynamic process. The value of IB lies in the fact that it really changes how you think as a student. I have changed so much through my IB education and I have an outlook which is distinctly different from those who did AP. It is true that all IB programs are different, but if the one at his school is well-developed then he should do it. At our school, it isn’t just a bunch of busy work and our program is very young so it is still growing. In the most recent class, there were graduates to Harvard, Duke, University of Colorado, etc. It’s a great program and I would never give up the experience that I have had in IB.</p>
<p>S2’s IB program does get a good number of folks into top schools, but the program admits top-notch kids in the first place, so who knows if it’s the program or the kid that makes the difference. However, I have noticed there is also a decently sized contingent that chooses to take a less-stressful route in college.</p>
<p>S really has enjoyed IB – he loves the class discussions and differnt way of thinnking, and his writing, while always good, has improved markedly. My beef is largely with how it is administered and the stress that it induces. At our house we say the IB program is “eating their young.”</p>
<p>My daughter, a graduate of the same IB program, would agree.</p>
<p>She feels that IB neither hurt her nor helped her in college admissions. But some of her former IB classmates felt that it hurt them, in that their GPAs were lower than they would have been in their regular high schools. It’s also possible that their recommendations were less enthusiastic (because it’s hard to stand out in a class of Overachievers) and that their ECs were less impressive (because they couldn’t devote as much time to them as they would have liked) than they would have been in the regular program.</p>
<p>On the other hand, after IB (at least this IB program), college is a relatively relaxed environment. And my daughter attends a university not known for being relaxed.</p>
<p>MomLive, your school’s kids come back to get their IB diplomas? At my daughter’s school, the diplomas come in the mail.</p>