DS deciding not to do IB

Parents Forum
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<p>Our IB coordinator has a spreadsheet that shows an admission rate for select schools by IB vs. not IB. There are definitely schools that show a slightly higher admit rate for IB than their overall admit rate. But it wasn’t significant. It anywhere from a few percentage points higher up to maybe 10% higher for IB for a few schools. About the same as the EA/ED difference vs. RD rates at a lot of schools. A little higher but not enough to guarantee anything. If I can find the spreadsheet, I’ll enter in the information. I thought it had come off the IB website but I looked and didn’t see it.</p>

<p>To the OP; my son waffled about doing IB - he was really interested in TOK but had concerns about the workload. He knew we wanted him to do it, so he gave it serious consideration. The deciding factor was when he didn’t pursue getting his teacher recommendations. We knew then that he wasn’t 100% enthusiastic about IB.</p>

<p>I have no regrets about him not doing IB. I’ve seen a number of kids do it and love it. But it’s not worth the extra effort unless the kid wholeheartedly wants to do it.</p>

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<p>Our son’s class (he is a junior) will be the first at our school eligible for an IB diploma. Although he is ranked in the top three in his class (of 400), he chose not to go for the full IB diploma. The reason: most IB classes in the new program were only offered one hour and that meant he could not keep his fine art elective (Competitive Drama/NFL) on his schedule. The same held true for his closest friend–she would have needed to drop band (where she is a section leader) to do full diploma. His decision came after much angst and the entire GC staff trying to arrange his schedule to make it work so he could do full IB and keep his elective. The school worked a long time to became IB certified and really hoped the top 2011 students would go for the diploma.</p>

<p>In the end, he said “I think the counselors think I SHOULD do full IB because of my class rank. But it’s not want I want to do.” Gifted kids need some outlet from the pressure of academics and the fine arts often provide that outlet. Despite what all the counselors say, a full IB candidate can’t do band, theater and other performance arts without a ton of stress.</p>

<p>Only 13 students are trying for full diploma. Another 35 have a combination of IB and AP classes. We all breathed a sigh of relief when our son made this decision on his own.</p>

<p>By the way, as an incentive for the IB program, the school is paying for all IB exams. They do not pay for AP tests.</p>

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<p>Remember that a spreadsheet showing IB vs. not IB is showing IB vs. students who are doing AP intensive and students who are not doing AP intensive programs. </p>

<p>At the various colleges where I’ve seen admissions officers comment on IB vs. AP, they’ve said that they regard equally IB and AP-intensive curricula. From what I’ve seen locally, the stellar students at our AP intensive high schools and the stellar students at the IB program both get into top colleges.</p>

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<p>Re: grad school & IB. Today, I spoke with my D (college sr who has an IB diploma) about her plans after graduation. I said, “hey you’d better make sure you put IB diploma on your apps for grad school”. D said, “my IB diploma is already on my resume”. She was absolutely serious. Maybe it does help with grad school admissions afterall…</p>

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<p>I would be very surprised if a grad school cared about whether one had received the IB diploma. Grad schools care far more about one’s college and post college accomplishments.</p>

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<p>Please keep the info coming as to which schools prefer IB diploma candidates.</p>

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<p>If you look at how they grant AP and IB credit, most offer X credit for scores over a certain level on the HL exams. There are, however, a bunch (Bryn Mawr being one my D considered carefully, but there are many others) offer sophomore standing for an IB diploma above a certain number of points. Of course, you can’t know that till the summer, but that criteria gives you a good idea of who loves IB over AP. I did notice, pretty much everywhere, that for kids whose high schools aren’t known to a particular college, they said that the IB program gave a frame of reference that AP didn’t always because there are a lot of places where AP is just a name, but IB is pretty standardized. Binghamton actually says (and there are others) that they acknowledge IB as the most rigorous possible program. But, really, who cares? If kid has the most rigorous courses possible but doesn’t do as well because he hates it, who benefits?</p>

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<p>Some more established IB programs offer SL/HL in music, theatre, etc.</p>

<p>Because IB has many required courses junior and senior year, between those and state-mandated requirements, it can be tough to fit in electives a student may want to pursue. OTOH, the same problem presents itself when taking AP courses or special classes – they are only offered 1-2 periods a day and may conflict.</p>

<p>My older S’s non-IB program had an eight-period day, and we all loved the flexibility it offered for doing music, art, journalism, another language, etc. The IB program is seven periods and we missed the leeway the alternative offered. (Then again, older S’s day was an hour longer, too, which presents its own set of issues.)</p>

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<p>As I mentioned elsewhere, I deal with tons of grad school apps- both masters and PhD. I can’t imagien anyone ever caring remotely about anything done in highschool. Okay maybe if you won an Olympic medal in HS it would be interesting to read, but really IB would not be relevant in anyway.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom – I think how the school views the IB diploma vs AP really depends on the type of school. I imagine a lot of schools view them the same, I just noticed with liberal arts schools I visited, all of them seemed really impressed at the sound of the “IB diploma”. I think it just helps your application stand out more, because you’re not taking the same classes as everyone else–but then again, every school’s admissions process probably works completely differently, its just the few schools I’ve asked seemed a definite “go” on the diploma. But I completely understand your son’s decision to opt out…IB is a TON of unnecessary work, like IA’s and such. And nobody should ever, ever do it just for the “prestige” element, whether its there or not–I’m sorry if that’s what it sounded like I meant (because it’s way too much extra work to do it for the name). As a senior, this year for me has not been too overwhelming, and I’ve been accepted into college so I’m in a better mood about it all. But second semester of my junior year, 4-5 hours of homework a night was not unusual for me, and I drove my family crazy because I was venting 24/7 about how much I hated the thing. So, posed with the same question last year, pebbles, I might not say it was worth it. Again, it depends on your situation, what schools your kid wants to apply to, how much homework they can take, and even what the IB teachers are like and what subjects they take. For example, I elected to take econ instead of history, and my friends in history tended to have a lot more work than I do. For my HL’s I chose econ and physics as opposed to history and bio-- econ and physics are more conceptual but less memorization (therefore less time consuming), history and bio (it seems to me) are a bit easier to understand, but a lot more time-consuming. Physics was by far the hardest thing on the planet. It was horrible at first. But eventually, I got used to it, and now I love it because I love what I’m learning. On the other hand, I definitely don’t think I could’ve handled IB biology, but then again, I hate memorizing stuff. IB is one place where you want to choose your subjects REALLY carefully.</p>

<p>Another point is that from what I’ve observed, AP and IB learning is totally different-- I haven’t actually taken any AP classes, but I did take the AP econ exam last year. My predicted IB econ score for HL is a 6 or a 7, but I think I got a 3 on the AP econ exam. The material is really different, as is the style of learning. I think AP tends to be more fact-based, whereas IB is more analytical. I think IB grading overall is more subjective, whereas AP is more objective. There’s the good and bad for both, it just depends what you like.</p>

<p>Also, in my case, basically the only AP classes my school has are calculus and art-- so I didn’t have much choice in the matter, and it seemed like I might as well do the full diploma as opposed to having 5 certificates or something like that. My school is also considering making the IB diploma mandatory in the next couple of years. Your kid seems to have a lot more options available, so he/she has more to consider when making their decision.</p>

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<p>Both my daughters at our international school opted to do the IB diploma. D1, who graduated last year, doesn’t think there was much point to it because she was accepted to college in the U.S. long before her IB scores came out and is in a major (film) where she doesn’t see a connection. I happen to think she got a great education and skills from the IB route and that in itself will benefit her in college and beyond.</p>

<p>I am encouraging D2, however, who is focused on the sciences, to try to get the best scores possible, because eventually, the mention of an IB diploma with a top score, may make a small difference for many grad schools across the world. I have no idea where she’ll apply or end up, but I definitely see a potential future benefit as far as international options. Because, although her college record will be the most important thing, international institutions may have a hard time comparing grades/rigor of American universities and I think a great IB score will still impress.</p>

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<p>“I am encouraging D2, however, who is focused on the sciences, to try to get the best scores possible, because eventually, the mention of an IB diploma with a top score, may make a small difference for many grad schools across the world.”</p>

<p>Just like colleges don’t care about what applicants did in middle school, I doubt that grad schools care about applicants’ high school accomplishments. What will matter for your D will be her college grades, the reputation of her college, her GRE scores, and the research she does while in college and afterward (if she doesn’t apply to grad school right after college).</p>

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<p>“I think how the school views the IB diploma vs AP really depends on the type of school. I imagine a lot of schools view them the same, I just noticed with liberal arts schools I visited, all of them seemed really impressed at the sound of the “IB diploma”. I think it just helps your application stand out more, because you’re not taking the same classes as everyone else–but then again, every school’s admissions process probably works completely differently, its just the few schools I’ve asked seemed a definite “go” on the diploma.”</p>

<p>Where I saw that being in IB helped my sons was that as black males visiting colleges, they immediately stood out as being extremely smart when they said they were in an IB program. Unfortunately, there are far more black males trying to get into college by virtue of their athletic prowess than those trying to get in by virtue of their academics. I imagine that my kids would have stood out just as much, however, if they had said they were taking an AP intensive program: black males are scarce there, too.</p>

<p>A big problem with our local IB program is that the director is so desperate to achieve racial diversity that she allows anyone in who applies to it, including students who lack the academic background that indicates they would succeed. To help those students pass in IB, all of the students are given lots of time wasting assignments like word definitions and outlining chapters.</p>

<p>I heard from the director herself about how and why she admits unqualified students into IB and lets them remain. </p>

<p>Not doing those assignments was why older S - - who had a 780 CR – got a D in IB English fall semester of his senior year. It’s also why another student – who had an 800 CR – got an F for IB English.</p>

<p>When it came to Extended Essay, which could be a marvelous opportunity for students to do publishable research – the director of the program provided a 6-hour training to students on how to write their papers. What she emphasized was how they should follow the required format (MLA?). Although there were university professor parents who would have been glad to mentor students through their research, the director insisted on being the only mentor for about 40 EEs a year. She took forever to read students’ work and then commented only about whether they followed the correct format.</p>

<p>Where we live, the AP program is for smart students who want to take those classes, and there aren’t the kind of make work assignments that the IB program had. When younger S switched from the magnet school IB program to the AP program in our zoned school, he was amazed at how engaged the students were and how interesting and supportive the teachers were. </p>

<p>The other difference was that IB was the only reason that the magnet school makes the list of America’s top high schools. The nonIB part of the school is dreadful, with a lax administration, bad teachers, do nothing SGA, and students so low performing that it is considered a triumph if they graduate. The school where younger S took APs is a strong school throughout, and the difference was palpable from the moment we walked into the building.</p>

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<p>NSM, while I admit, I’m going more on impression and hearsay rather than actual knowledge, I was referring to international universities still taking the IB diploma into account for grad school. The IB diploma is highly valued at many higher learning institutions across the world and I think it gives them a reference point to compare students from many different countries and educational backgrounds. I’m not saying it would be a major factor in an admission, but it does give immediate credibility to a student coming from a background they might not be as familiar with, including some U.S. colleges. </p>

<p>I’m sure U.S. universities have enough information with a transcript from a familiar school and GREs (which I’m not sure are used internationally) etc. I just believe in keeping options open for my daughter who may very well want to seek a degree in some other country later on.</p>

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<p>Would someone please explain to me why an extended essay is considered such a difficult part of the IB diploma requirements?
I know that at our school the kids that do not get the diploma do not get it because they chose not to do an extended essay.
I understand that it is your own research, but at 4000 word is hardly a BIG paper .</p>

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<p>It’s not a big paper, but many students are intimidated by it, and --judging by the experience I saw in sons’ IB program – in many cases, the faculty acts like doing a 4,000-word paper is horrendously difficult, and that intimidates the students more.</p>

<p>When I realized it was just a 15-page paper was, I laughed. I had to write a 10-page paper for my high school honors social studies class, and I never heard of anyone in my class who didn’t manage to finish their papers. We also didn’t have all of the time and guidance that IB students get.</p>

<p>When I went to an Ivy, I thought a class that just had a midterm essay exam and a 20-page paper was an easy class.</p>

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<p>

My daughter loved it and probably could have written 10,000 words because she used all the time allotted to do amazing research. I can’t tell you how proud I am of her and how much she got out of the experience. But, as I’ve said before, she loves research and it plays to her strengths. Might not be such a spectacular result for someone else.</p>

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<p>It’s more that the EE is to be done on top of all the other course requirements and does not count for a grade in any course. S’s paper was 17 pages plus footnotes. His problem was that he wrote an analytical paper based on what he knows about the topic, not a research paper – and had to go back and find support for all of his assertions.</p>

<p>I had to write term papers in HS, too – but it’s a rarity these days. IB is about the only place that requires it any more. S1 wrote a scientific research paper in HS, but that’s different from your typical “term paper.”</p>

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<p>I’ve asked, because it so happenes that my freshman is working on a paper for his LA class. Out of the blue, while in the car yesterday he checked the word count and he already had 6000 words and by the time he will be done today I bet the count would be close to 8000.
So what is a big deal about the essay?</p>

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<p>IB also wants specific approaches to the material and certain concepts to be raised. S said that if it were a plain research paper, he would have been good, but backmapping in the IB required stuff was a pain. Of course, had he read the guidelines he received last April, he might have had more of a clue. (Still waiting for EDM on this one.)</p>