DS deciding not to do IB

Parents Forum
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<p>“Would someone please explain to me why an extended essay is considered such a difficult part of the IB diploma requirements? I know that at our school the kids that do not get the diploma do not get it because they chose not to do an extended essay. I understand that it is your own research, but at 4000 word is hardly a BIG paper.”</p>

<p>I think 4k words is a big paper for high school students, although it is not a big paper for college students and that is one of the goals of IB – to prepare high school students for college level workloads. But the size is not the main issue for most students. In fact, one of the biggest problems for some students is too many words that aren’t quality words, just filler.</p>

<p>The extended essay is graded in large part on the quality of the research, reasoning and analysis. A 4k word paper that is mostly descriptive or narrative as they call it (i.e., merely summarizes rather than analyzes) will get low marks. Of course, the EE does have to have some descriptive writing to form the basis for the analysis, but the paper is scored primarily on the quality of the research, reasoning and analysis. </p>

<p>The reality is that many high school students have learned how to summarize but have not learned critical reasoning skills and even if they have, have not learned how to organize and present an analysis in a written format. Many of them can articulate points, but when you ask them to write these points up formally, they have difficulty. And that is exactly what students are asked to do in many college level courses.</p>

<p>This link below shows you the general assessment criteria for the EE. Some are pretty easily satisfied – such as including your research question in the introduction – others are more difficult to satisfy – such as presenting a reasoned argument and applying analytic and evaluative skills appropriate to the subject matter.</p>

<p>[Extended</a> essay guide](<a href=“http://production-app2.ibo.org/publication/19/part/3/chapter/7]Extended”>http://production-app2.ibo.org/publication/19/part/3/chapter/7)</p>

<p>“S’s paper was 17 pages plus footnotes. His problem was that he wrote an analytical paper based on what he knows about the topic, not a research paper – and had to go back and find support for all of his assertions.”</p>

<p>I think your S’s example is precisely why the EE is a great experience. Most high school students have never been asked to cite to sources to back up what they have to say and in college, you are often asked to do that. So this is a new experience for many of them and one that helps to prepare them for college level writing.</p>

<p>“IB also wants specific approaches to the material and certain concepts to be raised. S said that if it were a plain research paper, he would have been good, but backmapping in the IB required stuff was a pain. Of course, had he read the guidelines he received last April, he might have had more of a clue.”</p>

<p>I had this exact issue with my DD. She wanted to “just get started writing.” I had her sit down and go over the guidelines and explain them back to me as a way to get her familiar with the assignment. As I told her, you can write the best paper in the world but if the paper is not written in the way the assignment asked you to write it, then you get a low mark. </p>

<p>I think this is a valuable lesson for kids to learn not just for college, but in life, too. In my experience, the work place is filled with people who have difficulty merely following instructions. They get started on a project without fully understanding what they are being asked to do and then time and effort (which equals money in the workplace) is wasted because what they are doing isn’t what needs to be done to get the job done.</p>

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<p>" ‘forced’ is the keyword. I learned a lot more in advanced classes I actually enjoyed then ones that were just required for the curriculum.”</p>

<p>I am not sure forced is the appropriate word. The EE is a requirement of the IB curriculum if you are seeking the diploma. How is this different from satisfying the requirements for a degree in college? </p>

<p>I am sure people learn more in those classes in which they have an interest and enjoy, but college students are often faced with the reality of having to take classes they aren’t all that interested in in order to satisfy the requirements for a degree or to get into a graduate program. How many doctors out there enjoyed taking Organic Chemistry in order to get into medical school? Not too many I would guess. It is a weed-out course for medical school that they are “forced” to take, that is if they want to get into medical school.</p>

103

<p>“However, based on college admissions success, I don’t see a distinct advantage to those in the IB program.”</p>

<p>This is entirely dependant on the college. Some colleges love IB students, others are indifferent to them. The IB program is designed to be a college prep program, not a college admissions test. At least for my DD, spending the time she did on her EE took away from the time she had to prepare for her SATs, which hurt her scores without a doubt.</p>

104

<p>I’ll also point out that S2 has been assigned three such “EE” research papers in college already this semester. They don’t feel nearly as intimidating since he has the EE under his belt. </p>

<p>For those doing/contemplating EEs, reading the rubric is really important. See where the points are. Determine what they want. S did his EE in Peace and Conflict Studies, where there is precious little curriculum content available. It’s a school-developed course, so everywhere we tried to find IB guidance, he was stymied. Our school did not offer a P&C course, either. He was pretty concerned because his paper was much more directed towards conflict than peace. Finally found an IB document that described the terms in which they wanted the paper framed; S did some research on those terms, recast a paragraph or two and continued with his work. </p>

<p>Using a style format properly (MLA or whatever is the standard for that subject area) is also important. Attribute with footnotes and format them correctly. There are a couple of student-prepared guidelines to the EE online and one offered particularly good advice about writing introductions and introducing one’s research question.</p>

<p>Not many high schools assign term papers any more. It was standard procedure when I was in HS. It’s important for kids to learn that the cut-and-paste that is so easy to do when ■■■■■■■■ the internet does NOT constitute a research paper.</p>

105

<p>“Cumulatively, the IB program is stressful for the people I’ve talked to.”</p>

<p>I agree that IB is more labor intensive than your typical high school curriculum, even compared to those in which the students take lots of AP classes. However, I don’t think it is more labor intensive than the typical college curriculum. </p>

<p>I think the issue then becomes – is it good for high school students to work that hard at their age? I think the answer is entirely dependant on the student. For my DD, she still had enough time to play 2 varsity sports, work out, go to the beach, shop with her girlfriends, go to high school football games, travel in the summer, walk the dog, go to parties, prom, homecoming dances, etc. She is very organized with her time. After sports practice, she comes home, walks the dog and then gets busy on her homework. Do you know what she doesn’t do? She doesn’t spend hours looking at facebook pictures or playing video games or watching reality TV shows. She doesn’t drink and she doesn’t do drugs.</p>

<p>Now don’t get me wrong – something did have to give with all of the demands on her time. But it wasn’t sports or her social life. In retrospect, it was her SAT scores. She didn’t take the time to prepare and it shows in her scores. She could have, though, if she weren’t such a social butterfly like her father, lol! But she is happy and I couldn’t be more proud of her.</p>

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<p>This is where parents can step in with some timeline management for their IB students. Get that standardized testing done by the end of junior year. SAT, ACT, SAT-II, whatever – there will not be time fall of senior year for more testing. Period. My feeling is that all students applying to colleges where they’ll have to write application essays should finish testing in junior year.</p>

<p>Could not imagine where S2 would have crammed in another standardized test fall of senior year. His football teammates were straggling in the morning after a game to take the SAT-IIs and SATs in Oct. and Nov. Not a good way to get one’s best performance.</p>

<p>RE: stress – S2 managed pretty well til late fall of senior year. EE, TOK paper, seven AP/IB courses, college apps, football, captain of debate team, etc…it was no longer fun.</p>

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<p>“Not many high schools assign term papers any more. It was standard procedure when I was in HS. It’s important for kids to learn that the cut-and-paste that is so easy to do when ■■■■■■■■ the internet does NOT constitute a research paper.”</p>

<p>I think IB is a positive reaction to the dumbing down of our high schools. AP courses are good, too and I agree with those who think AP is a better choice for a science/math type who wants to go to engineering school.</p>

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<p>“This is where parents can step in with some timeline management for their IB students. Get that standardized testing done by the end of junior year. SAT, ACT, SAT-II, whatever – there will not be time fall of senior year for more testing. Period. My feeling is that all students applying to colleges where they’ll have to write application essays should finish testing in junior year.”</p>

<p>The only problem with that for my DD is that her school of choice does not look at senior year grades so junior year is the big year for grades. She prioritized school, sports and social life over test scores. She did take the SATs junior year, but did it without any prep and it showed. She prepped some this fall and did better. If my DD had to rely on her SAT scores from junior year, she would be going to a community college. </p>

<p>I am not making excuses for her - she didn’t prep for the SAT very much and could have if she wasn’t so active socially. But she is happy and has done very well in her IB program and I am proud of her.</p>

109

<p>Our kids went to a very rigorous private school before we moved. The school didn’t have an IB program and offered very few APs. On the other hand, students were required to do a lot of writing, even for some science classes (research papers). D1 graduated with 6 AP credits and only took 4 AP classes(D1 took the hardest courses possible). When D1 went off to college she felt she was a lot more prepared than other students.</p>

<p>D2 is a junior at a new school, and she is doing IB because it’s the most rigorous program. She said in comparison with her other school (where she went to from K-10), IB is easier. D2 is a good writer, so it doesn’t her as long to write a paper. I know how much time D1 used spend on doing homework on her AP and Honors course load, and in comparison D2 is not doing more on IB. The program is very suited for D2 because she is more into humanities rather than math/science.</p>

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<p>My son went to a rigorous private college prep school. It did have IB as an option but all students were required to to either write a EE or a senior thesis (the senior thesis was considered the harder of the two). They had a phenomenal writing program starting in 5th grade. They were constantly writing papers. Son is taking honors level Philosophy this semester in college and the professor keeps commenting on how well he writes. </p>

<p>I still don’t understand why we can’t have national educational standards. A friend whose daughter is in the 10th grade at the local public school and ranked #14 in a class of 450 never has to write papers, nor do they require any summer reading.</p>

<p>All students should be taught to write well - not just those in IB programs or private schools or, with luck, a great public school. I think outside of CC, parents don’t quite understand what their kids aren’t getting in terms of education.</p>

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<p>“A friend whose daughter is in the 10th grade at the local public school and ranked #14 in a class of 450 never has to write papers, nor do they require any summer reading.</p>

<p>All students should be taught to write well - not just those in IB programs or private schools or, with luck, a great public school. I think outside of CC, parents don’t quite understand what their kids aren’t getting in terms of education.”</p>

<p>I think this is why people think IB is such a demanding program – because regular high schools can be so undemanding. Even some of the so called honors classes at the public high schools in my area are not very demanding. </p>

<p>IB is more labor intensive than your average high school, but your average high school does a terrible job at educating their students. It is not like the IB kids can’t still have a social life and play sports or do whatever other ECs they are interested in. They can. They just can’t spend hours a night in front of a TV or computer wasting away their time. That is not a bad thing.</p>

<p>I scratch my head when people refer to the busy work that the IB students have to do. Huh? The EE is NOT busy work. It is a college level research paper. My DD learned a lot by writing it. She not only got used to having to cite sources, she learned how to do research without using Google and got a lot of great feedback from her advisor that improved her writing.</p>

<p>“we had the audacity to take a brief family vacation (and he brought along work).”</p>

<p>Similar story here about working during vacation. This Thanksgiving DD’s cousins (who are not IB) came to visit. We cooked and hung out around the house on Thanksgiving and DD took them to the beach on Friday and Saturday and they shopped on Friday after the beach, too. Today DD skipped the beach because she has about 4 hours of work she has to do for school. Her cousins went to the beach again today and they can’t believe that DD wouldn’t come with them because she has school work to do. </p>

<p>I really don’t think having 4 hours of work to do over a 4 day break is that much. It is an hour a day. During Thanksgiving break she was able to have a family day and 2 beach/shopping days and then work ½ a day. She is perfectly fine not going to the beach for a third day in a row and doesn’t seem stressed or that she is missing out on anything.</p>

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<p>Oh and they went to the movies on Saturday after the beach, too. Wow, what a stressful life these IB kids live, lol!</p>

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<p>Thanks for bumping this thread up. D2 will be making her decision by mid January; she’s currently a sophomore and is “pre-IB.” While there are many reasons why I’ve wished she wouldn’t go down this path, the reality is that she plans on taking 5 years of a foreign language anyway, and most of the classes she’d take are the same. There has been an additional IB class added this year that makes the program more appealing to her so I’m thinking that she’ll probably end up signing the contract.</p>

<p>Atacom: my inlaws have been here since Monday for the holiday & they can’t believe how much homework she has had. Pretty sure when they visit my SILs house that my niece & nephew are not doing homework over the weekends ;)</p>

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<p>My nieces and nephews who are my kids’ ages marvel that S1 & S2 always seem to bring HW with them when they travel. They are envious of the opportunities and the education my kids got, but not of the workload. :slight_smile: I’m envious that the nieces and nephews have time to explore other interests.</p>

<p>S2’s IB program was selective admit within a very large school system. These kids do VERY well in college admissions. There is a lot of internal competition for grades, etc. S2 took the “I want a balanced life” approach, which cost him some in the GPA and undoubtedly kept him out of a couple of schools where he applied. Part of the stress was from the way the program is run and that teachers did not always coordinate schedules and return work on a timely basis, so getting feedback on written assignments was VERY frustrating. Because a lot of kids took both IB and AP exams in certain courses (mainly SL courses), there are some areas that the kids had to cover on their own because there is not 100% overlap on the exams. S2 did some overlapping exams, mainly to make sure he got credit/placement one way or the other.</p>

<p>The local HS offered plenty of APs, but they were taught so that students would get 3s. Where S1 and S2 attended, the expectations were higher, and generally 90% got a 4 or 5 on the APs, 5-7 on IBs, with 129 kids in S2’s year getting the full diploma (98% of candidates). </p>

<p>S2 tested well and did not have to spend as much time preparing for them as we had originally feared. He took the SAT twice, no ACT and three SAT-IIs, once each. </p>

<p>My other S never considered IB – he’s a math/CS guy and went to a specialized program. IB would not have been helpful for him in those areas. He would have liked the humanities side of IB, though.</p>

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<p>There are those who disagree. It’s important to remember the selective admit factor. These are kids who would have gotten into good colleges regardless of where they went to high school. The question is not whether these kids do well in college admissions, it’s whether they do better or worse in admissions after being in that IB program than they would have if they attended their neighborhood schools.</p>

<p>My daughter graduated from the same IB program. She feels that she did not benefit or suffer from being in IB, in terms of college admissions. But many of her former IB classmates disagree. They feel that the lower GPAs they received at the IB school, combined with less time for ECs, hampered their college admissions prospects. </p>

<p>I know of no objective evidence to support their claim, but it’s something worth thinking about, both for this program and for other IB programs.</p>

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<p>“They feel that the lower GPAs they received at the IB school, combined with less time for ECs, hampered their college admissions prospects.”</p>

<p>I don’t know about all colleges of course, but for those my DD applied to, they recalculate your GPA and give extra weight for AP and IB classes because they recognize those classes are harder.</p>

<p>As for the less time for EC’s, I haven’t seen that at all in my DD’s program. Many of the kids are athletes, volunteer, are active in student goverment, have part time jobs, etc. The reality is that unless your EC’s fall into the spectacular category, schools want to see enough ECs to show you are not anti-social, have interests outside of school, and care about the world around you, not just yourself. But as long as your ECs are sufficient to demonstrate that, the only ECs that further enhance your application are spectacular ECs that most kids wouldn’t have regardless of whether or not they were in IB.</p>

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<p>“The question is not whether these kids do well in college admissions, it’s whether they do better or worse in admissions after being in that IB program than they would have if they attended their neighborhood schools.”</p>

<p>It really depends on the college. Some colleges love IB students and some are indifferent to them and some treat them the same as those who take lots of AP classes. </p>

<p>But I don’t think IB is a program to pursue if you think it will enhance your child’s chances of admission to college. I think it is a program to pursue if you think it will enhance your child’s chances of success in college.</p>

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My S went and my D goes to the same school, and this is a much-vexed question. My observation is that the kids do very well overall, but they do not appear to do as well at the very most selective schools as you might expect. Why this is is hard to say–I can’t help thinking that some of these schools just don’t take very many students from the same high school, even though they say that isn’t the case. I would also say that for my S, I think the IB program challenged him and put him in an environment with other good students, and that he did a lot of things that he might not have done at his home high school. I think he ended up with better ECs than he would have otherwise, but it’s really impossible to know for sure.</p>

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<p>From the very first IB presentation years ago, I’ve felt IB program is so intense that parents should never push kids if opposed or if the kids is “on the fence”. </p>

<p>I had 2 kids do IB, as their choice. (I did not push - in fact it complicated logistics going to another HS). For the older kid, pre-IB was ok but we did not realize how tough it was… she got overwhelmed and had to drop out in the middle of junior year. Sadly my kid was not vocal enough to tell us and GC that even though grades were fine the work was escalating beyond enjoyment into intense stress. I’m glad that OP’s kid is speaking up now. </p>

<p>The second kid did fantastically well in IB. In the end it did not matter for the selected college since we went for the NMF scholarship. AP credits would have worked just as well (at some schools better, since SL IB usually not accepted). He is perhaps over-prepared for college, but that’s ok :wink: But he does not for a moment regret IB. Had he decided to go to our state flagship, he would have started as a sophomore. </p>

<p>The real benefit of IB is not the credits, especially if the student wants to go to a tippy top school that does not accept them. It’s the whole experience and the academic prep. If the student want that, it is great. If not, it is definetly not worth the pain. </p>

<p>Per the Extended Essay, the 4000 words part is not the big deal. It is picking the topic. And the research. And the VERY particular IB requirements/rubrik. Many students draft over the summer and then have to rewrite in the fall during the heat of college apps, tough IB classes, etc. A lot depends on the advisor’s guidance. (For some reason, my son was not aware of the importance of the rubrik for EE, even though he was good at using rubriks in other classes. Perhaps it got lost in the 20 pages of other instructions). EE is NOT your typical HS term paper pulling together other people’s ideas.</p>

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<p>I chose to take IB because the other options were APs, A-levels or the Indian System. I thought IB in my current school was the best idea. I had an easy junior year but a hellish first term of senior year. I think the stress might hurt my essays a bit too - since I only have about 2 weeks to do them all. But…I think IB in my current school was the best option for me. And if nothing else, I learnt to work by doing IB, otherwise I’ve always breezed through school without needing to work for good grades. Now I actually have to work. But only next year will I know whether it was helpful for college or not. </p>

<p>For your son, if he doesn’t love lots of different types of subjects or if he doesn’t want to do it, then don’t push him. The other IB kids at my school sleep an average of 5 hours a night which I think is just unhealthy (I get about 7.5). It’s too much stress if you’re not the type/don’t want to do it.</p>