Hi all. So S24 continues to think through what he wants from life and now thinks that Dual Degree or Dual major through a conservatory in a medium size university is really what he wants (yes, he has been through several different plans over the past year). He has a 3.92UW/4.5W GPA which is going up this year (all As, our school does report A- which is why the GPA is not a 4), 1530 SAT in one sitting and has attended a precollege program since 7th grade(not the J one). His and my question is what to do for planning for next year? Do schools like Northwestern and Tufts have the same criteria for admission to the second degree as they do for single degree students? Our only experience in this is for my S21 actor where this was definitely not the case for the BFA program. If he was trying to get into Northwestern or Vanderbilt otherwise he would take the SAT once again to try and get a few more points, take an equally rigorous course load next year, etc but auditions and prep for prescreens seem much more important at this point. Thanks all!
Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh has the BXA program which my S19 was admitted for music (piano) and Mellon College of Science. He didn 't go however as they offered zero merit awards. Here’s some info on the program which comes with a hefty full-pay price for those not qualifying for financial aid. CMU would most definitely require standardized test scores however we know of a kid who got into the music program with less than stellar stats.
Tufts doesn’t admit people to the second degree, NEC does. Another option is to attend a school like Tufts (as a music major or other major) and study privately with a NEC teacher (or attend NEC and take classes at, say, Northeastern).
Is this decision on degree based on other academic interests, career interests, or a desire for a “backup plan”?
Schools often mentioned include Oberlin (see also the Musical Studies BA), Bard (all conservatory students are required to do a double degree), Lawrence, Ithaca, Harvard/NEC (MM), Tufts/NEC, Yale/SOM, U of Rochester/Eastman…and there are of course many others. Looks like Blair, Bienen and Carnegie Mellon offer double major with a subject area outside of music. Blair has a BA in Musical Arts and that degree can also be combined in a 3+2 year arrangement for an MBA. Bienen does have a dual degree option (f the other major is not in Arts and Sciences then the other major’s school is the primary one). CMU has a BFA in music (not BM) and as @caz0743 mentioned, the BXA program as well as a master of arts management in a 5 year program with the BFA.
The details seem to be different at each school!
If he applies to a BA program that does not audition, he can of course submit a music supplement if the school accepts them, with recording, music resume and LOR(s) related to music.
Back in the day my music kid changed their mind a lot in the last year and applied to all options, then decided in late April ! There were certainly cost factors to consider as well.
I second the CMU BXA option- and while they do not openly offer merit, there is some talent/merit money available in the school of music if you appeal to them with offers from other schools. I think it’s pretty rare, however, if another school offered something significant, you can definitely bring it to CMU admissions for consideration.
And of course I second the Oberlin option. About 1/3 of the conservatory students are double degree students and the process appears to be pretty seamless now from the get-go.
Our son was very interested in studying music plus another subject (broadcast journalism or sports journalism- which is why Ithaca was one of his choices) but by the time January rolled around he became fully committed to being a music major only.
Best of luck!
I have a senior in college finishing up a dual degree. Honestly, I think your kids academics are good enough to apply anywhere and if he gets in it will likely be because they want him as a musician on campus. I do think they will generally have high expectations for musicians on campus at many of these schools, but your kid is well positioned. My senior had similar stats and did well with academic admissions and academic merit (more mixed on the music side). I do think you want to continue on a path to be well poised for 2nd degree area of interest. If that is STEM, continuing math and science sequencing seems important. My kid is doing a STEM degree with music. You’ll want to check any recommended minimums with individual colleges. But I wouldn’t sweat over a few points on the SAT.
So I have a kid doing straight music auditions this year and a kid that was interested in dual degree and I’ve just found it was pretty different for us (to this point anyway). If your student is really committed to doing both, I highly recommend asking the hard questions about it. Dual degree was advertised widely in marketing materals and some teachers he had sample lessons with didn’t recommend it, didn’t take dual degree students in their studio, weren’t supportive, etc. My kid was applying for vocal. Vocal is just super competitive everywhere in our expeirence, maybe UG institutional needs are more intense for vocalists, etc. I think this can vary by who you talk to, what you’re applying for etc. This may not be a thing for more rare instruments/tracks and those faculty members may be more welcoming to a dual degree student, etc.
But if you don’t have a teacher and a music department supportive to you and your goals, it isn’t likely to go well anyway. My kid got the most love (in terms of interest and scholarships) out of large universities with schools of music that could offer more flexibility with UG musicians. That was not our expectation. There are double degree students plugging along happily at schools where my kid was told no you can’t do that by a faculty member. So I’m not saying rule out those schools - just connect with facuty if possible and ask hard questions. Those faculty members are gate keepers and will hopefully be your student’s best cheerleader. I do think if your student hasn’t visited a range of campuses, to keep options open. If my kid would have locked in on what kind of school he wanted to be at as a junior, he would have closed some of his best doors.
I think there can be a number of really good paths for a student like this. We found music faculty extremely high quality at most schools near metro areas even at schools that weren’t known for music. Where you apply to might depend on if you can be comfortably full pay vs hoping for merit vs you will qualifiy for need based aid. We are in that middle category ourselves so tried to stick to schools that were either affordable out of the gate or do have some merit money to work with (academic and/or music). There is some of that kind of info on this board from past classes if you dig around. Good luck.
ETA - catching up, we were priced out of CMU as well.
Thanks for all of the feedback. He will definitely apply to Oberlin, Beinen and Blair. CMU is not really an option for his instrument (many years they take no one, some years one). ALthough I mentioned Tufts/NEC I dont think that is going to be an option since he doesn’t really like the way the program is laid out. It has been hard for us to tell on websites if other schools like NYU, U Michigan, and Rutgers allow dual degree/majors. I have to look more into Lawrence and St.Olaf and possibly visit.
If son is considering dual degree or dual major, then (aside from cost), the “rate limiting factor” is going to be the teacher. He could find the perfect school, but if the teacher for his instrument or discipline is bad, cruel, or just not present, then no matter how good everything else is, it’s not gonna work out for him. So that’s where he starts.
We went through this about two years ago, similar situation. First step is for son to identify teachers that he might want to work with. He finds this out by speaking with his precollege teachers, acquaintances and teachers whom he’s met through summer programs and festivals who are now studying or did study with that person, and from instrument-specific internet/social media forums, chats, etc, where people are willing to say, “Zeus von Olympus may be reputed to be the best kazoo player in the country, but he’s never here/an SOB/a creep/a poor communicator”. Also, he should listen to the recordings made by such teacher, since you wind up coming out sounding like your teacher.
Once he’s identified the possible teachers, then he looks at the institutions. A killer-competitive huge studio where he might be shunted aside? Too isolated? Too far? Wrong climate? Poor options for his other major? Academic side of U is on the other side of town? No fin/merit money potential and so unaffordable?
Almost everywhere, one had to apply to both the music side and the academic side, and be accepted by both, with transparency that it would be for a dual degree program. Some settings allowed one to apply to the conservatory side after having begun freshman year on the academic side.
After my kid had made a huge spreadsheet, and had researched literally every school that had a performance major for their instrument, it surprisingly came down to only about seven or eight schools, mostly because of the teachers, some because of academics or location. Kid applied EA to two publics (our in-state with an excellent instrumental teacher, as the financial and academic safety, U Md for fantastic teacher, good academics, and possible merit money) and ED to dream school (tippy-top and would worry about the conservatory dual degree program afterwards if accepted). If didn’t get in ED to the tippy top, would have added McGill, Yale/Yale School of Music, and Columbia/Juilliard. The only option that didn’t have the automatic dual degree option was that ED tippy-top. Kid got into it, decided to go, and withdrew other applications, didn’t bother with dual degree. Plays a huge amount of music on campus, hyperbusy with premeds in addition to non-science major, still waivers back and forth about whether they should’ve/could’ve/still could somehow add the dual degree with the nearby prestigious conservatory. But overall, says that they’re happy with the choice - and yet, they submitted this year to the top competition in the nation for their instrument, so I guess maybe still regretting that they stopped lessons (no time), and are not at a conservatory.
Yiddish saying often quoted in our household: With one tuchis, you cannot dance simultaneously at two weddings.
This is what got my kid into that tippy-top, I’m sure. They were probably top 5-10% in a good suburban high school that virtually never gets any unhooked student into tippy-tops, 36 ACT (but 34 in math), precollege at 3 prestigious programs (including J), often two at a time, mostly highest-rigor classes, had demonstrated “resilience” dealing with serious family illness and unique Covid situation, also had a rec from tippy-top’s conductor. But when I spoke with the fin aid officer, he revealed he had also been kid’s admission’s officer. He really wanted to know whether kid had continued to play instrument on campus (kid has - orchestra, pit for shows, pit for prestigious historic entertainment group, just constantly involved in playing). So I do think that they took kid because they were hoping that kid would be heavily involved in campus music performing arts scene.
My point is, if your son plays the card of indicating extreme interest in playing in on-campus performing arts groups, it may greatly strengthen his likelihood of acceptance to highly selective schools.
My son got dual degrees from CWRU – music performance and aerospace engineering. His stats were not quite as good as your son’s, but he still got a nice merit award. CWRU is next to Cleveland Institute of Music and I think there is a partnership between the two. It’s worth checking out.
You are my new favorite person.
We have gone back and forth and back and forth and it is only January of senior year! He will certainly apply to BA programs at highly selective schools if he finds teachers that are a fit, it is going to be a long year and I dont expect him to make a decision until the absolute last minute! I think it is so hard for these kids who have spent every waking minute with their instrument and know nothing else (and have no clear path as to what they want to do with their life) to say well that was fun, lets move on to something else, but I dont know what that is! Music is the center for him and conservatory training is his home.
He is a SENIOR??? Uh oh. I thought he was a junior. You said '24, so I assumed he is a junior. If he’s a senior, he has missed the boat for this year, needs to submit applications over this summer right after graduation for fall of '24, and find something very productive to do as a gap year, '23 to '24. But you must have mis-written “it is only January of senior year”. He’s a junior now, right?
We were at the same point that yours is, right up through early fall of kid’s senior year. Constant debate over dual degree, double major at a U with a school of music, or just play music and continue private lessons on the side, if accepted at that one tippy-top without a performance music major. In fact, the other tippy-tops weren’t even on the list until that (one shot due to Covid) ACT came back in mid October, making those tippy-tops seem more in reach.
And yes, you are so right, it is VERY hard for a kid whose entire identity has been their instrument, who practices hours a day and plays in several ensembles, to say to themselves, “It’s time to move on.” It was easier for my child, because all their music (aside from individual practicing - and the people who play loud instruments and lived in apartments lost even that) suddenly just stopped in mid-March of 2020, didn’t resume at all until fall of '20 for some, and by us, not really until fall of '21. That loss forced my child to consider whether this was really what they wanted for their professional life. I know they’re still not totally reconciled to the decision.
Omg, i am at work, he is a junior
My kid auditioned at Michigan. The finances did not work out for him to attend for us, but their music program and the faculty he spoke with seemed very open to double degree students. And it was actually these types of schools that were most warm and welcoming to my dual degree interested kid.
I think one reason schools like this might care less is they might offer you a 4 year music scholarship. If you want to work on a 2nd degree while you’re there, ok by them. Where some schools might wrap your finances into a double degree 5 year program. Which ties up potential music scholarship money for an extra year. So I think some music teachers with limited funds to work with may think on that carefully in relation to other applicants vs program needs.
I will say my son is finishing both his programs in 4 years. But he did take some summer classes (during times when he maybe would have been interning) and he came in with about 35 dual enroll credits. Anyway - that just may be a consideration if you’re hoping for merit money and are comparing a program with Michigan vs. getting accepted for a double degree 5 year program at a LAC.
Yale does not offer an undergrad degree in performance but does offer a Bachelor of Arts degree. If you student chooses that option, it’s likely they can study their instrument with one of the extremely talented music performance masters degree students.
Yale does have a plentiful supply of ensembles for all undergrads to participate in.
But if your student wants to be part of the “conservatory” as a performance major, this can’t happen at Yale as an undergrad.
Unless something has recently changed.
@thumper1 Yale added a double degree recently: BA/MM.
That’s great. I would imagine it is highly competitive. But go for it! Why not?
You can be admitted later in your time at Yale so don’t have to have the double admit right away. And you don’t have to major in music.
The Bachelor of Arts/Master of Music program is designed for outstanding instrumentalists who are also interested in a liberal arts education. Admission to the B.A./M.M. program is through acceptance into Yale College as well as a separate, successful audition through the School of Music, either before matriculation into Yale College or after the third year of the B.A. program.
The five year combined B.A/M.M. degree program is open to both music and non-music majors at no additional cost beyond Yale College tuition (the School of Music is tuition-free.)
Oh the deja vu! @helpingthekid73 send me a message- I can fill you in on our journey. I’ve been away for a while (3rd kid now at UCLA) but popped by for the nostalgia 
Thank you!!