<p>I'm a Duke graduate ('08) starting medical school this Fall and thought I'd take the time to answer any premed related questions you may have. I started a similar thread for last year's class (if you do a search) which I hope they found useful. I know a lot of you are considering medicine (perhaps at Duke or another institution) and I would be happy to answer your questions candidly. There are a few other premed threads floating around so if you could repost your questions here, it will be easier for people to find a centralized Q&A source. Again, congratulations on getting into Duke!</p>
<p>I guess I'll start with stats, because that is what most people want to know.</p>
<p>Just how hard is it in the pre-med courses at Duke? Did anyone you know who truly wanted to go into medicine find themselves impeded by the intensity of the competition?</p>
<p>Do you feel that medical schools understand the rigor and grade deflation at Duke?</p>
<p>Were you still able to fully participate socially as a Pre-med?</p>
<p>Lastly, what med school are you attending, if you dont mind me asking?</p>
<p>–Just how hard is it in the pre-med courses at Duke? Did anyone you know who truly wanted to go into medicine find themselves impeded by the intensity of the competition?</p>
<p>From my experience, people quit when all the sudden they found out that they had to work hard. Biology and Chemistry in college turned out to be harder than it was in high school. If you go in with the mindset, there’s going to be a lot of work you’re okay with that, you should be fine.</p>
<p>Just how hard is it in the pre-med courses at Duke? Did anyone you know who truly wanted to go into medicine find themselves impeded by the intensity of the competition?
Premed classes will be hard no matter where you take them and people will drop out for various reasons (lost interest, burn-out, etc.) What makes the courses hard is not so much the difficulty of the material, but how the courses are curved (C+/B- median). About 40% of incoming students declare an interest in medicine (in a freshman year survey) but only 10-15% end up applying. Talking with friends at other schools, the statistics are comparable. The bottleneck in medicine is getting into med school and you have virtually guaranteed job security and placement at all subsequent steps. In other fields, the bottleneck comes later on (job search).</p>
<p>Do you feel that medical schools understand the rigor and grade deflation at Duke?
Yes. Just take a look at the average cumulative GPA and BCPM (science) GPA of Duke applicants who were accepted to medical school (~3.5, 3.3). They are way below the national averages (~3.7, 3.6). Med school adcoms have years of experience with Duke applicants and know how the courses at Duke are curved. Furthermore, the average MCAT hovers around 34 for Duke students (31 nationally), so the lower grades are not a reflection of student ability but rather grading policy.</p>
<p>Were you still able to fully participate socially as a Pre-med?
Definitely. Of course, I had to work hard to put together a competitive application, but it is important to recognize that the road to becoming a practicing physician is very long (med school, residency, and in some cases fellowship) and you will need to balance your academic pursuits with time for yourself to stay sane in the process.</p>
<p>Lastly, what med school are you attending, if you dont mind me asking?
I would rather not state explicitly, but it is a top 10-20 school by the two most common metrics (USN&WR, NIH rankings). By the way, I haven’t started yet - applied in the current cycle, went through the interview process, and am making my final decisions.</p>
<p>Thanks for giving us this opportunity to ask questions!
No problem I know how exciting and confusing it can be to be starting college and simultaneously thinking about med school four years down the road. If you have any questions during your time at Duke, just ask! You will have access to a slew of advisors and it is best to get multiple opinions along the way.</p>
<p>Do you recommend premeds to do Focus during 1st semester? I’m very interested in the Global Health cluster.
I have only good things to say about Focus - the program started when I was a freshman and I was in the Evolution and Humankind cluster. I feel it helped transition me to college life and gave me the opportunity to improve both my writing and analytic skills since the courses are seminar-based and discussion driven. Since each cluster is ~30 people and you share a common living space, you will get to know your classmates well and form a tight-knit community. I don’t know too many specifics about the Global Health cluster. If you haven’t already, check out the Focus website ([Focus](<a href=“http://focus.duke.edu/]Focus[/url]”>http://focus.duke.edu/)</a>) and maybe send an e-mail to a professor whose class you are interested in taking. I believe the Global Health cluster is fairly competitive - be sure to spend some time on your essays as that is how each clusters’ professors will primarily choose their students.</p>
<p>Also, what’s your opinion on getting a certificate in Global Health? Is it beneficial for premeds?
If you are genuinely interested in global health, then by all means go for it. The website provides much more information on program specifics than can I ([Duke</a> Global Health Institute - Global Health Certificate](<a href=“http://globalhealth.duke.edu/education-fieldwork/degrees/ghc]Duke”>http://globalhealth.duke.edu/education-fieldwork/degrees/ghc)). There is a fieldwork/internship component which seems very cool. One thing I would urge you to steer away from is the notion that certain majors/interests/etc. are more “beneficial” than others. The best thing you can do for yourself is to study and participate in things that interest you rather than things that you think will look good to adcoms. Also, DukeEngage is a new program that provides funding for students to perform service abroad. It provides a terrific opportunity to explore your interest in global health.</p>
<p>I don’t know if this is exactly pre-med. But I was wondering how hard Chem 23L is compared to Chem 21,22. Would it be beneficial to take 23 rather than 21 and 22?</p>
<p>The Chemistry department is revamping its introduction classes. Apparently, they want you to start with Chem 31L, then take Orgo I & II, and finish with Chem 32L. I have no idea how this will play out.</p>
<p>The equivalent of 23L will be 43L. From my understanding and according to my friends, it’s a complete waste of time. It’s interesting, but you don’t learn anything practical. It’s not an accelerated introduction course. The professor pretty much just based his entire course around one disease and tried to teach the course around it. </p>
<p>If you got a 5 on the AP test, I would recommend just going into Orgo. Otherwise, start at 31L, and don’t waste your time with 43L.</p>
<p>I’m not premed but I took Chem 23. Worst. Idea. Ever. For me, it was my first and last Chem course at Duke (I’m a BME major and I need 2 Chem credits so for me it was AP Chem + Chem 23). Chem 23 is by all accounts a horrible class. I have friends who got an A in it and despised it. I have friends who got Cs and despised it (many of those friends are premeds who got through Orgo with A’s and other than for Chem 23, their worst grade is like a B). I have never heard a positive thing about it. Chem 23 is not a course you want to suffer through your first semester of freshman year. Trust me on this. </p>
<p>The professor is ridiculous. We didn’t have a textbook (it was an eBook he wrote himself. Bad idea. When the lecture notes don’t make sense, you automatically go to the textbook for help, right? Well, the textbook in this class ARE his lecture notes. So no help there). He refused to put up practice problems for the tests (all we had were recitation problems to practice off of). One of my friends didn’t do as well as she wanted on one of the midterms (got average, so like a C+, not absolutely horrible - people failed those tests - though certainly not great). She went to ask the professor how to study for tests so that she could do better on the next one (after all, she was in her first semester at college. She wanted help) and was told to drop the class. Essentially, the course itself was hard and a waste of time because we learned virtually nothing. Furthermore, there was no sort of support if we did badly.</p>
<p>Someone told me similar things before I registered for classes before freshman year but I didn’t listen…And lived to regret it. If you’re going to have to take Orgo and you have AP credit, then start with Orgo. The curve is an A-/B+ and you’re never going to have a chance to take it with such a nice curve again.</p>
<p>Yeah the revamped chem curriculum is completely unnecessary as well as the new “number system” that will be in effect in Fall 2010. Apparently, our lower numbers for our courses make us look not as good for grad schools. Maybe look at the back of the transcript for the course number descriptions? I guess these changes just try to make a facade of Duke “improving” and “making progress”.</p>
<p>I might have taken Chem 23 a year before the above poster but I had Toone also. We definitely had a proper textbook (at least for reference) even if the instructor didn’t really stick to any organization that remotely parallels the text. </p>
<p>As for the class itself being tough, I would agree but say that it’s not as bad as many make it out to be. Sure it’s not your high school AP Chem, but it’s not exactly rocket science either. If you do the work and think things through, you should do well. Even if chemistry isn’t your thing, the average Duke students aren’t stupid and can definitely handle it. </p>
<p>As for taking orgo first thing freshmen year, if you are a premed, I would really really encourage you to find out if AP Chem alone would satisfy the 1 year of gen chem w/lab requirement that almost all med schools have. You don’t want to be stuck having to do a higher level chem later on just because you found out you need another semester of inorganic chem. And no, biochem is not guaranteed to be a replacement for gen chem. In fact, some schools take it as a replacement for 1 semester of orgo and only if it came with a lab (which Duke’s doesn’t).</p>
<p>I have heard extremely mixed things about Chem 23L or now known as Chem 43L. Some say it just requires reason and persistence. Others think that is it horrible, because the material is not covered. I am just not sure exactly how Chem 43 really functions. It is just a fast chem class or does it cover broader application of chemistry. I have been baffled between the two for a very long time. As for taking orgo, I already know that many medical schools won’t take AP Chem for both semesters of the gen chem requirement, which is why I was leaning towards Chem 23/43. I guess my questions now is more about what the course is about and I guess if its a ebook could I get link to check it out and read through it.</p>
<p>I have also heard mixed reviews about the quality of instruction in Chem 23L. I don’t know much about the revamped curriculum so can’t comment on that. I came in with a 5 on the AP and opted to go strait into Orgo (Chem 151L/152L) freshman year. To my knowledge (unless the sections/curves have changed), you will be placed in an all-freshmen section for 151L (curved to B/B+ median - the higher curve offsets the very smart people in the class). For 152L, there is no special treatment (standard C+/B- median, section with upperclassmen). Whether you skip Gen Chem or not should depend entirely on your background knowledge of the material. If you know it well or are one of those people that can easily pick up stuff you’ve forgotten, it may be better to go strait into Orgo. You will need to take a semester of Biochem (BCH 227) after Orgo though (since your AP credit is for only 1 semester of Gen Chem). If your knowledge of Gen Chem is rudimentary, you may want to consider taking it. There is not much of it in Orgo, but you will need to know it inside out for the MCAT. In some ways, I regret not taking Gen Chem at Duke because I had to study much harder for it when it came to the MCAT.</p>
<p>Yeah, I did well on the AP test, but I have forgotten most of the information so I guess I will take general chem probably Chem 23 as like a refresher/challenge. Thanks for the help.</p>
<p>I heard freshman orgo 1 was A-/B+ in the 07-08 school year. No idea if it still is. </p>
<p>The e-book for Chem 23/43 was on a site that you needed an access code for, and the access code cost $80 at the textbook store, so you can’t just read it. On the first day of class, he told us that he used to have a textbook for the class but decided to scrap it for our year in favor of an e-book. </p>
<p>Essentially, when I took the class ('07 fall), he tried to teach it in terms of CML, Chronic Myelogenous Leukemia. He gave us an intro on what CML is the first day of class and explained why GenChem concepts tie closely to CML. After that lecture, I was in love with Chem 23. </p>
<p>Then what happened was he lost focus on CML and never brought it up again until the very last lecture in which he basically said “and all the topics we learned in this class related to CML,” and that was it. </p>
<p>Instead, we got a bunch of random topics to learn about that never related to each other or to AP Chem topics. We did probability theory (apparently that helped us better understand entropy), he made us memorize all the amino acids (because he thought most of the class was pre-med and would have to at some point anyway - for people like me, who weren’t pre-med, this was ridiculous), and the reading for the first exam was chapters 1-5 of the organic chemistry textbook. We might as well have been taking orgo.</p>
<p>Overall, I don’t feel as if I really learned anything in Chem 23. Sure, I got an overview of a bunch of disjointed topics, but that was about it. It’s not a bad class in that you can do well if you study each topic separately and really understand each one, but I hated how no topic related to another and a lot of the time had nothing to do with GenChem. The worst of it was the lack of textbook and lack of effort on his part to tie everything together.</p>
<p>Thanks, if I were to go directly into orgo freshman year, would I take biochem to fulfill premed requirements? I have been somewhat confused by that. I know some med schools will simply accept the credit, but others won’t. Also would it then be alright to lets say take orgo and then Chem 32, since it supposed to go after orgo anyway?</p>
<p>Vasudevank-
You may want to ask Dean Scheirer, the chief premed advisor (e-mail: <a href=“mailto:dan.scheirer@duke.edu”>dan.scheirer@duke.edu</a>) since I am not sure what the deal is with the new chemistry sequence. As far as I know, you will receive only 1 credit for AP Chemistry and will need 1 more chemistry course after Orgo I/II. The choice is between PChem and Biochem, with nearly everyone choosing the latter. Furthermore, many med schools now require a course in biochemistry, so you may want to take it anyways. If you don’t, you may find yourself unable to apply to certain schools later down the road.</p>
<p>I am also interested in finding out the answer to this question. In the new 09 BME student handbook or whatnot, it said a 4 on the AP exam can be placed into Chem 151. I think this policy is different from previous years, where only a 5 can get you placed into orgo 1.</p>
<p>I believe that skipping general chemistry is a bad idea for a pre-med, because almost all medical schools require two semesters of general chemistry with lab. If you use AP credit for general chemistry, you may later find that the medical schools you want to apply don’t accept AP credit for general chemistry. Even if they accept AP credit, as we all know, AP chmistry is much less rigorous than college chemistry, especially in terms of lab. Therefore, you will be at a disadvantagous position compared to other applicants. Moreover, if you skip general chemistry, you may not do well on MCAT, as you will not have the opportunity to learn the concepts covered by general chemistry in other advanced chemistry courses.</p>
I know how exciting and confusing it can be to be starting college and simultaneously thinking about med school four years down the road. If you have any questions during your time at Duke, just ask! You will have access to a slew of advisors and it is best to get multiple opinions along the way.</p>