Duke Robertson vs Princeton

Colleges and Universities A-Z Duke University
1

<p>(Am also posting this in the UNC, Princeton and Parents threads)</p>

<p>I was lucky enough to be admitted into the Princeton EA Class of 2018, offered a place at Trinity College, Cambridge and be awarded the Robertson Scholarship to UNC/Duke (I'm an intl student) and now I have no idea what to do (though definitely not Cambridge bcs I don't have any FA). I am so so grateful and lucky and excited, but also exhausted from weighing up the pros and cons of both.</p>

<p>Accepted into UNC, still waiting on Duke RD.</p>

<p>I was offered nearly a full ride at Princeton (they only want $5k a year from my parents) whilst the Robertson is a full ride minus health insurance, flights and a general living stipend unless I'm at UNC (which would probably end up costing around $5k)... Princeton want me to work too though and have a summer job, so it would probably stretch my parents more than if I were to take the Robertson.</p>

<p>Benefits of the Robertson: Duke/UNC have a more chill and less intense atmosphere, in the South so nicer weather (although still snowy/cold in winter) - very quintisential college experience, garuanteed summer experiences - grow into a better person and leader, free laptop and other perks (financially a bit better), probably a much easier life, still a great education bcs of access to profs etc! Sanford school is good. Good alumni network so perhaps better chance of getting a good job, close bond between scholars (I want a nice community), basketball environment more fun....</p>

<p>Disadvantages: I've never been to NC/Durham though so I could hate it (I hated UPenn and Columbia, for example)... still doesn't have the same history as the Morehead/feel almost 'second tier', at the end of the day you are still a UNC or Duke student, coming back to the UK hardly anyone knows the scholarship let alone the UNC or Duke - there are certain benefits that come from prestigious unis, education at UNC is good - but not the same as my other options, not that much freedom in summer experiences (I could probably find similar opportunities for community work and internships @ Pton), not sure I like greek life at all, some of the Duke controversies like the student porn star make Duke seem a bit conservative and stifling</p>

<p>Benefits of Princeton: It's arguably the best university in the US, Woody Woo is great for future career prospects - i also love the course, beautiful friendly campus (less risk because i've been there), close to family (who live in NY), benefits of being near NYC/Philly/DC, name resonates across the atlantic, strong alumni connection, will probs get a great degree, good study abroad options/internships too, really incredible professors, I want to do Politics/IR (and POSSIBLY do a MPP or something, go to grad school or enter the foreign service...) and is v good for that, Pton has the highest per capita endowment in US - this has to show for something, humbling experience to be 'small fish in big pond' - perhaps there is more freedom/more opportunities to access...</p>

<p>Disadvantages Princeton:
grade deflation is off putting - i want to try all different types of subjects and not feel the stress of having to fight against everyone else for a 4.0. i've been advised to only be 'safe'- this isnt what college is about, campus seems a bit too small + cold haha, not a big fan of eating clubs - i think they're a bit outdated and elitist, difficult to stand out - harder to access summer opportunities, socially difficult too</p>

<p>I need to decide soon. I know I am so lucky but I'm scared about where I will regret more. Would really appreciate any input, thanks! </p>

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<p>@Nireh14: To begin, my sincere congratulations on your outstanding achievements; obviously, you have MANY excellent alternatives and you simply cannot make a poor choice. With this said – and I certainly intend no offense – your foregoing analysis understandably seems to be somewhat superficial and stereotypical (although I am aware that you’ve not really visited all the relevant universities and their communities). This brings me to my fundamental point; I truly believe you are far less likely make this crucial decision well without spending at least a couple days at each university. To illustrate, you mention a probable degree of discomfort with fraternities and with eating clubs (which I appreciate), but how do you really know? It’s possible that you might find these small living situations to be idyllic (probably not, however, I use this relatively innocuous example to explain my overall point).</p>

<p>It would be a real shame (in my opinion) to have so many superb options, and then not to select your optimal alternative due to judgements based on perceptions rather than facts and to inadequate individual observation. Therefore, I strongly recommend that you visit each institution, ask questions, meet undergraduates, attend classes, and – most important – obtain a firsthand, personal feel for each university, its faculties, its resources, its students, its facilities, its mores, its institutional values and attitudes, and its aggregate community. It is my considered belief that you cannot really assimilate all of these important elements vicariously – there is no substitute for your personal observations and your informed assessment of cultural, intellectual, and academic “fit.” </p>

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<p>@TopTier Thanks for your kind comment. I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the superficiality of some of my comments. Unfortunately, however, there is absolutely no way of me being able to visit. I’d been to Princeton before (for about 90 minutes!) and thought it was great, but yeah, I don’t have enough money for flights. So now I’m just trying to ‘work out’ factors like ‘fit’ and ‘comfort’ through speaking to current students/alumni/people on here.</p>

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<p>@Nireh14: I appreciate your gracious response and all that it conveys. Given the impossibility of on-campus visits, my next suggestion would be to find a few alumni from each germane university (I would wager that an e-mail to each alumni association, which thoroughly explains your situation and why discussion with their graduates is crucial, would result is names and contact information) in your geographic area. Further, I’d try to meet with both a relatively recent graduate (quite current information) and one who is at least twenty-years beyond his baccalaureate degree (unquestionably, greater “life perspective” and the ability to explain the integration of his undergraduate experiences in many real world situations). Finally, I’d emphasize two critical facts:
a) As indicated in my earlier post, you really cannot make a bad choice; every university you are considering is outstanding.
b) The alumni with whom you meet, all likely love their alma maters (their respective alumni associations obviously won’t “nominate” a graduate who will probably deny your request, which strongly implies institutional commitment); therefore, thoroughly understand their spoken and implied points and perceptions, but also appreciate their advocacy. </p>

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<p>@Nireh14. Can you explain how the Robertson works for international students? I see you were notified in December, but haven’t heard yet from Duke if you’re accepted there. If you get into both UNC (as you’ve already done) and Duke, do they allow all international Robertson’s to simply choose either one as their home institution (i.e. where they spend 7/8 of their semesters)? Or did they already give you a “designated Robertson university” that is contingent on your acceptance? Thanks for the clarification. </p>

<p>You have great choices and don’t think you can go wrong. As for your concerns with Duke, I think they’re overblown and based upon false stereotypes. I wasn’t Greek and did not find Greek life at Duke at all dominant or pervasive - it’s easily avoidable if you want and I think actually adds to the Duke experience. I had “independent” friends and Greek-affiliated ones as well. Duke also is nowhere close to conservative and stiffing - recent “controversies” don’t represent the true nature of the university and the media just likes to play them up since they’re interesting stories. Duke is a very diverse community in backgrounds, geographies, perspectives, and opinions, but is overwhelmingly inviting and nurturing (and it certainly leans liberal). Duke has an exceptionally high satisfaction rate and pride in the university FOR LIFE.</p>

<p>The Duke experience as a Robertson (or UNC if that’s your home base) is supposed to be outstanding, giving you a smaller community of other key leaders and movers in your peer group as well as easy access to professors and research. It is much more nurturing than being a "normal’ student at Princeton. Having said that, obviously Princeton is also outstanding and it sounds like they’re giving you a great financial aid package, so that is also a good option. I would say that UNC is more regional and much less international than Duke or Princeton if that’s important to you. Duke and Princeton are both very much national - and international - schools. Honestly, it probably won’t make a huge difference in your life as to where you end up and you’ll find basically equivalent success and opportunities regardless - I’d go where you think you’ll be happiest and provides a solid environment in which for you to grow and take advantage of opportunities. </p>

<p>Good luck with your choice!</p>

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<p>Congrats! If you can’t tour the campus, check out some virtual (and real) campus tours on Youtube</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=duke%20virtual%20tour&sm=3”>https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=duke%20virtual%20tour&sm=3&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The summer experiences that the Robertson offers are really topnotch. It is pretty hard to turn down the Robertson, but it is hard to turn down Princeton as well. You really can’t go wrong, so go with whatever feels right, whether it be financially academically or socially. I have friends who aren’t Greet at UNC and have no problem going to parties and having a social life. The same can be said for Duke, you don’t need to be Greek to go to all parties and if you join a living group or just make a group of friends, you’ll end up going out together and having good experiences. </p>

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<p>@Nireh14: I’m a class of 2017 Duke Robertson, and I’d be happy to answer any questions that you have. Many of us were facing a similar choice (Robertson vs. Princeton) last year, and I remember there being a fair amount of debate around this time. Anyway, I’d be happy to talk to you about that, Greek life (I’m proudly independent), or anything else. I guess some quick thoughts:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>At Princeton you’re competing with thousands of other dedicated, proactive students for your professor’s attention. As a Robertson scholar, you automatically have an in. Everywhere.</p></li>
<li><p>Not sure where you get the “conservative and stifling.” Most of the discussion of the porn star controversy that can be attributed to members of the Duke community (aka, not anonymous hate twitters) has either been wholeheartedly in support of her or has examined the strengths and limitations of her behavior as feminist. There’s more gossip about it than I’d like, but it’s not conservative. Seriously. Google Jacob Tobia.</p></li>
<li><p>You should really just google Jacob Tobia anyway.</p></li>
<li><p>I actually was surprised by how much grade deflation I’ve encountered at Duke. I’ve been a straight-A student my entire life, taking AP classes since I was twelve, and I’ve still had classes at Duke where I’ve struggled, not to learn the material, but to get an A. It’s very stressful when planning to apply to grad programs with 3.7 or 3.8 GPA cutoffs, and it should definitely be one of your considerations. I’m just not sure that it occurs significantly more at Princeton than it does at Duke.</p></li>
<li><p>Robertson office has a jelly bean dispenser.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Feel free to contact me if you have any other questions!</p>

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<p>RT to googling Jacob Tobia. I think I tell him everytime I see him that I want to be him when I grow up. He’s an incredibly genuine, thoughtful person whose advocacy is at times unparalleled-- and the best part is that Duke is full of people like him.</p>

<p>Regarding conversvatism at Duke, I’d say that we’re actually a pretty politically liberal campus-- enough so that conservative members tend to feel in the minority on campus. And please don’t judge us by anonymous twitter responses. Remember that about two-thirds of the Duke community isn’t involved in Greek life (only 1/3 of students are) and that the minority should not reflect majority campus culture (and should not dictate campus culture). I’ve found that most of the people I’ve met (and hang out with) at Duke are incredibly passionate, well-reasoned, and fantastic people (and that’s what should define us).</p>

<p>Also, all the Robertsons I know are absolutely amazing people. All of 'em.</p>

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<p>A lot of the school doesn’t like the adult film actress. It is only fair to bring the other view point, that she is attention seeking and at this point is incredibly annoying. Everyone has to deal with the costs of college education, some work hard and get scholarships (pretty sure she even had some at comparable schools), some take out loans, some work, some have wealthy parents, etc. She has every right to do her adult films, but she doesn’t need to constantly complain and blow it into a national scandal with Duke’s name attached to all of her videos. I wish that she’d actually have real thought out logic before she goes on national tv and stumbles with a lot of the questions.</p>

<p>Duke is a liberal school, but even the oober liberals (such as people already mentioned in this thread) are seen as incredibly annoying and attention seeking as well by a lot of the student body. </p>

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<p>I am probably what you would consider ‘very liberal’ (I come from the UK where our Conservative party are, arguably, more left wing than the US Democrats!). So going to the South is a concern of mine, I guess. The Duke Pornstar isn’t a huuuuge deal at all, I just found some of the reaction to it interesting. It’s by no means a deciding factor. I guess Princeton with its legacy admits and traditions is also somewhat conservative</p>

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<p>I grew up in Durham and went to Princeton. It is a small school and you will get more from it than Duke. The Robertson is a great opportunity but on balance I think a Princeton education takes you where you want to go. I lived in London for 7 years. I know first hand the value of the Princeton name. Also, professors are VERY accessible. We even had a student-initiated seminar (basically my college church group) that was supervised by one of the greats of Southern History. Don’t be cowed by the eating clubs. My cousin came to Princeton some 15 years after me and she says they are not what they used to be. Hit me on a PM if necessary. I bleed orange an black. I was a Woody Woo and I cannot just say more about my experience.</p>

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<p>as for conservative or liberal … Princeton went out of its way to find housing for me and my partner while we were students. i was an undergrad and he was a grad.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your help everyone</p>

<p>For anyone looking at this in the future, I decided to go to Princeton for the following reasons</p>

<p>(Disclaimer, all three are amazing institutions, I’m so honored to have been accepted and I will echo what so many people have told me - you can’t go wrong. Go wherever you feel is best for you/suits your needs (but be thoughtful about this…)</p>

<ol>
<li>Finances are a priority. Financially they were the same deal, Princeton might even be better. Has amazing aid and funds hundreds of opportunities including the Bridge Year, internships, domestic service opportunities, research (think senior thesis). Also (/because) has the biggest per capita endowment in the world. I think I can get whatever opportunities the scholarship would have given me at Princeton (I read something from Malcolm Gladwell that said it doesn’t matter <em>where</em> you go, it matters that you got in) = so essentially, you’re going to do well wherever. Perhaps I won’t, but I think I’m going to push myself more at Princeton</li>
</ol>

<p>It then buckles down to which school you feel more comfortable at. I was at the disadvantage of not having visited NC, if you have the chance to - go</p>

<ol>
<li>I prefer the Princeton vibe, it seems more liberal, ‘close knit’ and academic (like a LAC). School spirit/basketball is great - but I think it takes away from other aspects of college life. Duke/UNC are Southern and I definitely noticed some ‘mean’ (/conservative lol) comments on the Duke Facebook page. In addition to that there are some social issues like the Duke porn star, rape scandals etc. that give me the impression Duke still has a lot of things to work on. I think UNC is slightly different but it’s a difficult topic.</li>
</ol>

<p>Please reach out if you want to discuss your own choices/chat, I’d be delighted to help.</p>

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<p>Conservative=mean? I’ve heard it all now…</p>

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<p>@MandarinChang‌ Princeton does in many respects, I agree! Almost all top 10 colleges suffer from the same issues, I’m not disputing that</p>

<p>It’s 100% a subjective thing, I just got a different, less ‘fratty’, less sports orientated vibe from them. I was offered the Robertson at both UNC and Duke, but I would dispute that one is worth any more than the other?? What do you mean 'they are very different? I don’t think the Duke Robertson is better than at UNC. OOS acceptance into UNC is below 10% and students on both campuses have access to the same amazing opportunities.</p>

<p>@patriotsfan1‌ I come from a country where our conservative party is considered more liberal than your democrats. It’s just a culture shock to find people holding opinions I find so radical (Republicans). But whatevs, it’s subjective.</p>

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<p>I would quickly eliminate UNC. It’s a fine school, but Duke and Princeton are definitely in another league.</p>

<p>Princeton is more prestigious, but not by much; Duke is certainly one of the top schools in the US. As prestige-focused as I am, I wouldn’t want to turn down Princeton, but I’d do it for a full ride at Duke.</p>

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<p>Nireh: “I come from a country where our conservative party is considered more liberal than your democrats. It’s just a culture shock to find people holding opinions I find so radical (Republicans). But whatevs, it’s subjective.”</p>

<p>I am sure that is true. However, isn’t the relevant concern not one of familiar/comfortable political values, but rather one of learning and equipping oneself for the future (especially in several decades, when competition for positions of senior leadership, regardless of career field, will be the most intense)? </p>

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<p>@TopTier‌ I’m pretty sure going to Princeton, where I won’t be given ‘special treatment’ as a scholar would at Duke will give me just the discomfort I need to equip myself with adequate skills for the future. Are you suggesting it won’t? Princeton is by no means ‘comfortable’ or the easy option! </p>

<p>When faced between the two, I personally dislike the Duke culture which extends beyond politics and manifests in more of a negative atmosphere - something I’m repeatedly saying is subjective, because it is. </p>

<p>You raise a good point though and I agree that prospective students should endeavour to stretch themselves at college. There are various ways to do this however:

  1. Go somewhere you’re uncomfortable (climate, culture, politics, country)
  2. Go somewhere that will challenge you academically and mentally</p>

<p>But even then, if you go to a college and feel like it’s the right fit for you - I would suggest going there! I think it’s better to challenge yourself on point 2. You’re going to meet a huge diversity of people at either of my options/any Ivy/Top 10 college, and diversity comes in many forms more important than political leaning</p>

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<p>@Nireh14: No, my previous comment had nothing whatsoever to do with your Duke versus Princeton decision. In fact, you will note that not one word was written concerning either outstanding university.</p>

<p>Rather, it was entirely focused on what you generally addressed in your response’s third paragraph: experience and learning from diverse cultures, from individuals and situations with which you have not had much experience, from the expansion of your personal “comfort zone,” and so forth. Perhaps erroneously, and intending no criticism, in several posts I have detected an unusual level of concern and a palpable reluctance on your part to do so. With no implied disapproval intended, isn’t liberalism really supposed to make an individual understand – far more deeply – a widely diverse spectrum of values, attitudes, standards, cultural principles, mores and so forth?</p>

<p>That you have ascertained Princeton is a better “cultural fit” for YOU is wonderful. Moreover, as you are very well aware, it is a superb university. By all means matriculate there . . . we Dukies will diligently attempt to succeed without you :smiley: .</p>

<p>However, please remember that, at least in my opinion, true diversity means an openness to ideas, thinking, people, cultures, ethos, standards, politics, and ethics with which you may be unfamiliar – and, ESPECIALLY, with which you may disagree. This emphatically does not mean you should approve of things you find morally repugnant, but you absolutely should be exposed to and LEARN from things beyond your current “comfort zone.” To illustrate, consider how you might well feel if your undergraduate peers at Duke, or Princeton, or Northwestern, or another distinguished institution ignored or degraded you because they were uncomfortable with your cultural background and its values; I respectfully suggest that you not make the same mistake.</p>

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<p>The Julian Robertson scholarship is really great - most people don’t truly understand the perks of it.</p>