Duke v. Cornell

<p>I bet if you just used the ILR, CAS, and Engineering schools for Cornell, it would be 5th most selective in the ivy league, after yale, princeton, harvard, and columbia. but why would you want to look at it that way? ivy leaguers that say cornell is the worst come off VERY bad because 1) its very "old-fashioned ivy" arrogance to talk badly about a college 2) you shouldn't say a college is worse because its diverse (in students and majors), afterall isn't that what top colleges strive for? and 3) i'm sure almost all of those students at the "better" ivies applied to cornell, visited, and maybe were rejected as well.</p>

<p>I'm an ILR alum and there's no way ILR is as selective as CAS. </p>

<p>Also, the engineering school, while it has very high numbers, is quite easy to get into as long as you have those numbers. Believe it or not, it actually has the highest acceptance rate at Cornell. Last year it was above 30 percent. (Arts was below 18 percent, in comparison.) This is because Cornell engineering unfortunately loses a lot of common admits to Stanford, Berkeley (in-state), and MIT.</p>

<p>In terms of acceptance rate, it typically goes:</p>

<p>-- Architecture
-- CAS-AEM
-- Hotel
-- HumEc-ILR-CALS-Planning
-- Engineering</p>

<p>In terms of selectivity (e.g. student quality) there is really no way to compare. How do you compare an architect to an engineer? Or a hospitality major to a farmer? If you look at verbal SAT scores, engineers do awful, but if you look at math scores, they rock.</p>

<p>The one thing that you might be able to compare are the social science majors across the colleges. And generally speaking, I think the pecking order for the social science majors typically falls along the following lines:</p>

<p>-- CAS, ILR
-- HumEc (PAM, Bio and Society, HD)
-- Planning, CALS (Communication, Development Sociology, Education)</p>

<p>Note that we're really splitting hairs and there is a lot of variation across these schools, a lot due to New York State residents getting cheaper tuition in the contract colleges.</p>

<p>I don't really like to compare the Ivy schools, just because they are so gosh darn different (that's one of the great things about the League). But CAS and science majors in CALS definitely hold their own against similar majors at Dartmouth, Penn, Columbia, and Brown. And Princeton and Cornell are equivalents in engineering, although Princeton is more theoretical and Cornell is more applied. Everything else is apples to oranges.</p>

<p>@CayugaRed2005, </p>

<p>I know this is purely anecdotal, but could you kindly share with me your experiences as a student at Cornell? Perhaps with regard to my point regarding competition amongst students? What do you think of the statement that "Cornell is the hardest school to survive in?" </p>

<p>You answered my question on student cohesiveness previously, but perhaps you could elaborate on the extent of self-segregation at Cornell? </p>

<p>Also, if you don't mind me asking, were you in a fraternity/sorority? </p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

<p>Our family had a unique experience last year that does a good job of answering this question. We attented the NCAA Div 1 Lacrosse Championship in Baltimore where 4 colleges gather for semi's and finals filling Ravens Stadium. Each school has a section of the stadium with mixed sections inbetween. Last years schools (2007) were Deleware, Hopkins, Duke, Cornell. We sat in a mixed area between Duke and Hopkins sections. The difference in the students and Alumni were very noticiable. </p>

<p>The Delaware folks seemed a bit out of place, all wearing the same yellow t-shirt clustered in one section with no-one in the mixed area. Very ordinary, salt of the earth folks.</p>

<p>The Hopkins folks seemed very laid back, and suprisingly quiet and reserved for being the hometown crowd.The student sections were not very loud or wild and the mixed sections were a mix of older lacrosse fans and Alums of all ages. From what I saw, I would catagorise the Hopkins folk as nice but dull.</p>

<p>The Cornell crowd was having the most fun. They either wore t-shirts with the number of a a "lost" player ( died in a game the previous year), or a variety of old lacrosse t-shirts spanning 30 years . They had the biggest hospitality tent and didn't seem to care who came in for free drinks or pennants to wave. They cheered the loudest, had the best band, and dominated the mixed sections with sheer numbers. A great mix of students and alumni who came from long distances to be there.</p>

<p>The Duke crowd consisted of a fratboys in blue paint, Girls with oversize designer sunclasses and cell phones that they chatted on during the game, and alums who all wore polo shirts with little Duke logos as if they were too high class to wear a t-shirt. Whenever they were losing they would shout at the ref that they would have him fired. When things were going badly they seemed to fight among themselves. When an Holder Hopkins alum in a wheel chair asked some Duke folk to sit down as they were blocking his diagonal view of the goal, they got the whole Duke section to stand up so they could "teach him a lesson". When they lost in the championship they stomped out early with sour faces cursing.</p>

<p>In constrast,Cornell lost to Duke in the semifinals, and all the Cornell folk stayed untill the end and then the Team went around the field saluting each section in turn as the Cornell crowd cheered wildly, almost as if they had won.</p>

<p>So for my money Duke has the meanest Students</p>

<p>
[quote]
The Cornell crowd was having the most fun. They either wore t-shirts with the number of a a "lost" player ( died in a game the previous year), or a variety of old lacrosse t-shirts spanning 30 years . They had the biggest hospitality tent and didn't seem to care who came in for free drinks or pennants to wave. They cheered the loudest, had the best band, and dominated the mixed sections with sheer numbers. A great mix of students and alumni who came from long distances to be there.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thank you. I was part of the recent alumni brigade, traveling over 500 miles to support the Carnelian and White. Despite the loss, it was a great weekend.</p>

<p>Hawkette, are you listening to this?</p>

<p>P.S. Sheman... you should see the Cornell alums travel for hockey games.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I know this is purely anecdotal, but could you kindly share with me your experiences as a student at Cornell? Perhaps with regard to my point regarding competition amongst students? What do you think of the statement that "Cornell is the hardest school to survive in?"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Despite rumors, competition among students isn't really a problem, even in the curved pre-med courses. Most students know that it is much more important to learn the material well than worry about other people. It definitely isn't a problem in the courses you are interested in.</p>

<p>As for whether or not Cornell is more difficult to graduate from than other schools... I don't think that is true either. The six year graduation rate is pretty high for such a large diverse school (92%). Rather, I think it is a reflection of how serious students are. Students at Cornell tend to be pretty serious and more focused on academics (as opposed to ECs) than at other schools. This is especially true for the pre-professional programs, including engineering, architecture, ILR, and other assorted programs (e.g. food science). Because students have a pretty good idea about what they want to do, they work harder.</p>

<p>What makes Cornell more stressful than other schools, in my opinion, is the prelim schedule, where in a lot of courses you will have three night "preliminary final" exams scheduled over the course of the semester before the final exam. At most other schools, it seems like there is either a) a midterm week or b)in-class exams. Because they tend to be at night, they are longer and more comprehensive.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You answered my question on student cohesiveness previously, but perhaps you could elaborate on the extent of self-segregation at Cornell?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think it is any worse than you will find it at any large (e.g 4000+ student) university. Cornell is a very diverse place (farmer and city slicker, artist and engineer, hotel manager and philosopher) so students will naturally gravitate towards those they have more in common with. Those that want a diverse group of friends will have that group. Those that don't will not. Personally, I had a pretty diverse group of friends. </p>

<p>Cornell is not like a LAC where everybody is hunky dory with each other. It's a large, diverse research university that caters to the undergraduate experience. (70% of students on campus are undergrad.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, if you don't mind me asking, were you in a fraternity/sorority?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nope. I had friends were in a couple, and would frequent their occasional barbecue or social. Their basement parties would get old pretty quickly.</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

<p>I have a friend from new england who says Duke has racial problems with the community and that the students are less accepting of differences between students. I don't know this first hand of course, just from my friend who is Asian and says he feels more uncomfortable than he ever did up east. He also says there's a lot of homophoblia. This is just one guy's opinion but I though you might want to have it.</p>

<p>^ Frankly, I think you find a lot of similar problems at most large, diverse universities, so I wouldn't want to single out Duke explicitly. It can certainly be perceived to be a problem at Northwestern or Cornell or Harvard too. </p>

<p>That said, it is a question of magnitude, and judging from a friend of mine, an African-American alumna from Duke who is now in a graduate program at Cornell, she found Cornell a little bit easier to find a niche; there's probably less pressure to "get in line" at a Northeastern school than a Southern school, and certainly at a school that is more diverse in terms of the types of students it attracts. </p>

<p>However, her opinion might just be a reflection of the fact that now she is just a graduate student.</p>

<p>@CayugaRed2005,</p>

<p>Thank you for letting me know that small detail about the Cornell prelim schedule. I don't think I could have found that out from any college guide or website. </p>

<p>From what I gather, perhaps I should not worry about the academic rigor of Cornell since I am only looking at the AEM program. The program seems to have a fair number of detractors amongst Cornell students, who claim that the program is much easier than other majors. They also complain that it is a program meant for "jocks" and academically-weaker students.</p>

<p>I don't know if it is a program meant for jocks or weaker students, it just attracts those types of individuals. More academically inclined students at Cornell have traditionally majored in things like ORIE or Economics in Arts. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that the AEM program in its current program is really quite new, and I suspect that the caliber of the student body is increasing dramatically. It used to be a program designed for farmers to learn how to manage an agri-business.</p>

<p>.... which totally explains why it is under the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences.</p>

<p>I'm interested in this thread because my D is possibly interested in Cornell as an undergrad. Question for CayugaRed & other Cornell alums: my impression is that people tend either to love Ithaca or to hate it, maybe more of the former but a distinct subgroup of the latter. Is that true? My information sources are limited here, mostly faculty gossip networks. But my impressions (or stereotypes?) are, on the plus side, it's an absolutely gorgeous location, easy access to outdoor activities, and a lively, progressive, hip (OK, I'm dating myself, D says it's not longer cool to use words like "hip") college town, big enough to give you lots of shops, bookstores, coffeeshops, decent food for a community its size, etc. Also a fairly diverse but relatively close-knit community.</p>

<p>On the downside: it's kind of far from anything bigger/more interesting, some people find it isolating and/or stifling, it's not so easy to get in & out by air (maybe more an issue for faculty than for students who don't travel as much, but I do want to see D on holidays), and the weather is, in a word, rotten. Not so much the cold as just gloomy for extended periods, especially over the winter. I did a little quick-and-dirty examination of meteorological records and concluded that upstate NY and southeastern Michigan (Ann Arbor) are two of the cloudiest places in the country, especially in winter. I remember those long dark periods from my undergrad days at Michigan when you sometimes wouldn't see the sun for a month. This affects some people more than others but there's a clinical term for it, Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD), and for some people it can be a real problem.</p>

<p>So what do think? Any truth to my impressions/stereotypes?</p>

<p>

This fits the description of a fanbase that knows very little about the sporting event they're attending, doesn't have high expectations for their team and treat the game more as a "alumni reunion" than THE GAME.</p>

<p>

Besides the chicks wearing tacky sunglasses, I'm extremely proud of the Duke fanbase and wish I was there myself. Cursing at refs, giving fans of other schools *<strong><em>, complaining about your team when they're not doing well and getting legitimately *</em></strong>ed off when your team loses...that's what sports fans should be all about. That's the difference between a real sports school and an Ivy League.</p>

<p>BCLINTONK,</p>

<p>Put me in the catagory of Cornell Alum who loved Ithaca. I found it to be quirky, exciting, quaint and beautifull. As a student I never seemed to lack for things to do, and loved the compactness of the city and the "feel" of College Town. I have returned to Ithaca several times "from the west coast" ,and much to my suprise find it to be nearly unchanged from my college days in the 80's. It is great for a student because you can get anywhere you need to go without a car, and most everything is inexpensive. I think that most people I went to Cornell with loved Ithaca. The only ones that don't seemed to have had their hearts set on going to college in a big city and somewhere along the way they were thwarted and ended up in Ithaca. The weather is not as bad as advertised and is somewhat compensated for by gorgeous falls, and springs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
This fits the description of a fanbase that knows very little about the sporting event they're attending, doesn't have high expectations for their team and treat the game more as a "alumni reunion" than THE GAME.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Unless you were actually at the game, please don't talk. The Cornell fans completely outclassed the Duke fans, many of whom made it completely aware that they had never seen a lacrosse game in their life. They were calling the EMO a 'Power Play' and kept on asking why, after a missed shot, the ball returned to the attacking team.</p>

<p>And actually, I don't know what planet you are from, but collegiate sports is not all about being sore losers, as the Dook fans were. It's about enjoying competition and seeing the kids play their hardest. </p>

<p>And no, Cornellians didn't have low expectations going into the game. We expected to be very competitive for the national championship. And we were, as we lost in the semis to Dook by one goal.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So what do think? Any truth to my impressions/stereotypes?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm from Upstate New York, in a place that receives a lot more snow than Ithaca. So I was one never to complain about the weather. February and March are a bit dreary, but otherwise are Sept. - Nov. are crisp and charming, and the first spring day on the Arts Quad in early April is positively brilliant. And for being a bit cloudy, I remember a great number of dynamic sunsets over West Hill.</p>

<p>If you have SAD, though, anywhere in the Northeast isn't the best place to be. In Boston it gets dark out at 4PM in December!</p>

<p>Upstate summers are some of the best in the country. Highs in the low 80s, with beautiful overnight lows in the 50s. Great sleeping weather. Highest number of sunny days and least amount of rainfall.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have returned to Ithaca several times "from the west coast" ,and much to my suprise find it to be nearly unchanged from my college days in the 80's. It is great for a student because you can get anywhere you need to go without a car, and most everything is inexpensive. I think that most people I went to Cornell with loved Ithaca.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Count me in on the "Ithaca Lover" camp too. It's one of the most unique and wonderful places in the world. Between the bookstores, coffee shops, organic food markets, and fantastic restaurants, it's small enough to feel cozy, but dynamic enough to feel exciting. And the food really is fantastic. After graduating, I moved to Boston, which is a city that is really lacking in its culinary abilities, especially for a so called "college town". </p>

<p>Add in the state parks, Cayuga lake, and the gorges, and it's a little slice of heaven on Earth for those who are so inclined to appreciate such things.</p>

<p>
[quote]
and most everything is inexpensive.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Agreed. If I would have attended a school in a city, I would have probably been spending an additional $1-2k on misc. expenses a year. It is much easier to keep up with the Joneses in Ithaca.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The only ones that don't seemed to have had their hearts set on going to college in a big city and somewhere along the way they were thwarted and ended up in Ithaca.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True. Maybe 5-10% of the student body complains about Ithaca. I could never understand this. Why would you enroll at Cornell if you were unhappy with the location?</p>

<p>
[quote]
and much to my surprise find it to be nearly unchanged from my college days in the 80's.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes. But Starbucks and the chain stores are moving in. There's also like four new high rises (e.g. eight stories or more) going up downtown by the Commons. Ithaca is the fastest growing metro area in all of Upstate.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Besides the chicks wearing tacky sunglasses, I'm extremely proud of the Duke fanbase and wish I was there myself. Cursing at refs, giving fans of other schools *<strong><em>, complaining about your team when they're not doing well and getting legitimately *</em></strong>ed off when your team loses...that's what sports fans should be all about. That's the difference between a real sports school and an Ivy League.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is simply horrible. I was at the Semi finals in Gillete Stadium at the Duke-Hopkins. There were just so many Dook fans around, it was crazy. Makes me feel uncomfortable and sick to my stomach how they can make such a mockery out of the sport. I would have loved to see a brawl between Syracuse and Duke fans. Syracuse fans would maul Dook fans. haha. Hopkins once again crushed your dreams for a national lacrosse championship. Total ownage.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I would have loved to see a brawl between Syracuse and Duke fans. Syracuse fans would maul Dook fans. haha

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would love to see this as well.</p>

<p>Although I think its good to have a consistent Cornell poster on these boards, sometimes, CayugaRed, I feel like you're becoming another "interesteddad." Usually you're pretty fair about Cornell, but every once in a while I think you put Cornell into a little too rosy of a perspective. </p>

<p>My 2 cents:
Ithaca is a wonderful city. But collegetown is not Ithaca. There is a very definite bubble seperating Cornell and Ithaca, and its unfortunate that most undergrads don't leave it. Most a pretty content with staying in their over-priced apartments in college-town and taking little day trips to the Commons once or twice a semster. These are the people who hate Ithaca- who think there's nothing to do, its isolating, etc. These are also the same people who drive to the Commons, haven't tasted Purity ice cream, and can't pronounce Taughannock. Its the worst with freshmen and sophmores, and gets better through you junior and especially senior year. </p>

<p>And, lets not kid ourselves, the weater is horrible. It probably rains 6 days a semester at Stanford. In Ithaca, there's probably about 6 days of sun. SAD probably affects 3/4 of the student population. It sets in slow, so you wouldn't be able to tell, until the first warm day in spring, where suddenly, you feel happy for no reason at all, the whole campus is outside, people actually smile at you as you walk by. </p>

<p>Competition does exist here, especially the hard sciences. People may not sabotage your reseach project, but some will be mean to you in lab. The school is large, and if they don't like you, there are 12,000 other people to be friends with. There is no "hunky dory" here, and that's a pro, not a con. Competition decreases and people are generally friendly in upper level classes, and/or in small majors. I think most of the hard comments and remarks on grade deflation come out of freshmen and maybe sophmore years. At least from a CALS perspective, its seems the whole university takes bio, chem, calc, and/or physics, plus writing seminars and oral comm. (only wussies take classes like "bio for non-major" and "calc for the life sciences"). Most of these are big classes, with little special attention, and curved to a C+/B-. Its a shock for incoming freshmen, who are used to getting all A's without trying, to find out half of their 400 person lecture will getting a C+ or below.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Usually you're pretty fair about Cornell, but every once in a while I think you put Cornell into a little too rosy of a perspective.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I try to be fair. But that's the beauty of nostalgia. I also have to spend a fair amount of time fighting persistent myths about Cornell (e.g. everybody is stupid, it's a safety school, the contract colleges bring Cornell down, there is no school spirit), so perhaps I get a bit defensive. But I don't think I engage in boosterism, nor do I unfairly put other schools down.</p>

<p>
[quote]
These are the people who hate Ithaca- who think there's nothing to do, its isolating, etc. These are also the same people who drive to the Commons, haven't tasted Purity ice cream, and can't pronounce Taughannock. Its the worst with freshmen and sophmores, and gets better through you junior and especially senior year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree with all of this. And for the kids who never get farther than College Ave. and Dryden, it is their loss.</p>

<p>But the ulterior point is that for the student who is willing to get out of the Cornell bubble, Ithaca is a dynamic bustling little town with a lot to offer. It certainly has more to offer than other cities many times its size (Rochester, Syracuse, Binghamton...).</p>

<p>I lived below Stewart Ave. my junior and senior year...</p>

<p>
[quote]
And, lets not kid ourselves, the weater is horrible. It probably rains 6 days a semester at Stanford. In Ithaca, there's probably about 6 days of sun. SAD probably affects 3/4 of the student population. It sets in slow, so you wouldn't be able to tell, until the first warm day in spring, where suddenly, you feel happy for no reason at all, the whole campus is outside, people actually smile at you as you walk by.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Do you think it is any worse than anywhere else in the Northeast though? I lived in Boston, and it was the same exact experience, except spring tended to break two weeks earlier. That and the ice storms in Boston are the most miserable thing I have ever had to deal with.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There is no "hunky dory" here, and that's a pro, not a con.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Agreed. You do not get your hand held at Cornell. But for those willing to seek out opportunities, the resources at your disposal are endless. </p>

<p>And I was in the social sciences, but I did take BIONB221. It wasn't that bad. </p>

<p>It certainly wouldn't be a problem for bclintock's daughter in the Classics department.</p>

<p>
[quote]
This (description of Cornell) fits the description of a fanbase that knows very little about the sporting event they're attending, doesn't have high expectations for their team and treat the game more as a "alumni reunion" than THE GAME.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So what? Is there something wrong with treating a game as an alumni reunion rather than as THE GAME? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Besides the chicks wearing tacky sunglasses, I'm extremely proud of the Duke fanbase and wish I was there myself. Cursing at refs, giving fans of other schools *<strong><em>, complaining about your team when they're not doing well and getting legitimately *</em></strong>ed off when your team loses...that's what sports fans should be all about.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sounds like Duke has the sporting culture of any number of low-quality state schools! Woo-hoo, something to be proud of!</p>

<p>What you describe, EAD makes me cringe of embarrassment FOR you, and would make me ashamed if a significant number of my fellow alumni ever acted like this at a sporting event. Are you paying attention, Hawkette? When you talk about blend of academics and "great sporting life," THIS is apparently what's being described. Is this "great sporting life" to you? I mean, really, cursing at refs and abusing the fans of the opposing team ... people with good SAT's and GPA's and all that stuff actually ACT like that in public? </p>

<p>EAD, if you are in any way representative of Duke, my respect for Duke falls lower and lower the more you describe of the culture. Give me an average-academic person with class over a smart person with no class any day.</p>