Duke vs. Amherst vs. Williams

<p>Perhaps because of how you attacked me on daring to say that Duke is more prestigious than Amherst on the last thread, and when I called you out on being rude, you quickly backtracked and tried to get around it?</p>

<p>Regardless, I'm dropping it now, seeing as it's irrelevant.</p>

<p>And, Sonata, the bottom line is that you're going to get a great education at any three of those schools, so you should really focus on where you're going to enjoy yourself more. No sense spending four years at Williams & Amherst if you don't want a small school, and no sense going to Duke if you'd prefer New England and a LAC environment.</p>

<p>No, I did not attack you, I said that your statement that Amherst was less prestigious than Middlebury and Williams was outrageous, and then said that Amherst and Williams are equally prestigious, and a large step beyond Middlebury. I asked you if you were insane, yes. I said very little about what you said about how prestigious Duke was, but I did not attack you then (and it's very debateable over whether my jabs at your reading comprehension skills have been attacks, as you have made equally harsh jabs about my character "I pity your classmates" etc.). I am glad you are going to a wonderful school like Duke and hope that they can help you work on your reading comprehension skills, because every single post you make is a serious misunderstanding/distortion of everything that has been said.</p>

<p>Riiiight, so digging through my old posts in some attempt to discredit me doesn't merit an attack.. hmm.. and I can assure you my reading comprehension skills are quite fine, thank you, though you could use work on being less harsh and offensive when you speak, unless you enjoy offending people and getting them irritated at you. I never would've said anything offensive to you if you hadn't started attacking (sorry, would you prefer "offending" or "personally insulting" if you're having issues comprehending my words?) me first.</p>

<p>"Regardless, I'm dropping it now, seeing as it's irrelevant."</p>

<p>...did you expect me not to respond? Do you only drop things when you think you'll have the last word? Hint: Once you say you're dropping something, it looks silly when you keep at it, which people generally do. In the future, you might want to steer clear of saying you're dropping something and then posting again afterwards. :) </p>

<p>I brought up the post because you did show a strong misunderstanding of the admissions process. The whole post was putting the blame on other people for your disappointing admissions results "I would have been accepted to Harvard, but..." "I should have been accepted to Yale, but..." It was offensive to good taste, and showed how little you knew about the process (you probably were qualified for Harvard and Yale, but so are the majority of applicants and they have far too few spots. Or, perhaps you came off as a tool in your essays, I don't really know.) </p>

<p>I think I am an appropriate level of offensive (you actually didn't offend me, either, was that your intention?) and perhaps you should work on not being so offended/irritated by a meaningless person on a messageboard. However, thank you for your advice, I will take it into consideration.</p>

<p>It's interesting to see who can better craft their argument: a student that is a product of Duke, or a student that is a product of Amherst. Just Kidding!</p>

<p>In all seriousness, unregistered, are there plenty of things to do in your free time at Amherst? If you are an upperclassman at Amherst, do things start getting "old" around there?</p>

<p>And sphairistic, do you feel as if you're receiving an excellent education at Duke, or do you feel that you are just "cramming" for exams and such, and getting by while having an awesome time? What would your friends' opinions of these questions be?</p>

<p>And from now on, I'll trust each of you regarding your respective schools. But, you are both entitled to your own opinions about the other's school.</p>

<p>I just feel like I'd receive a better education at a LAC over Duke. I have attended a small high school (only 85 kids!), and I've excelled in that tiny, personal environment. But, I feel like I'm ready for something more, and something bigger. As a senior, I'm bored at my high school, and I don't want to have a similar feeling of boredom if I attend a LAC. Would I feel this way if I attended Williams or Amherst?</p>

<p>Well, it depends. </p>

<p>I don't get bored easily, and I don't understand people who do. There are 1,600 students at Amherst, which may seem small, but it's still a lot of people in a close knit environment (with 4 other colleges nearby). The college is within close walking distance of an independent cinema and a few fantastic coffeeshops (sometimes they have good live jazz music). The town sometimes has terrific festivals ("Tastes of Amherst", "Extravaganja", etc. - you may like or leave that one ;)) There is a farmer's market from May to November (I love that). Northampton is a bus ride away, and they have some terrific small live music venues (I have seen a few of my favorite musicians there this year), more independent cinemas, the Academy of Music, good festivals...both towns have terrific restaurants, bakeries...they are what you make it. Amherst College shows great films through FLICS which is free to students, and the 5-colleges together bring fantastic speakers to the area (there will always be something going on at one of the colleges, and usually there is way too much to even take it all in). There is also profoundly beautiful rural areas nearby (Williams wins in this regard - it is in a profoundly beautiful rural area - with Amherst you need to drive or ride your bike a short ways to get to the really magical spots) There is so much you can do in your free time it would be overwhelming to try to take advantage of all the local resources, and I never get bored. Then again, I never felt the need to be in a big city - if you do, I'd say none of your choices are top notch ;)</p>

<p>Boston is 2 hours away, NYC is 3. Williams is a bit more isolated, but in a similar position (I'd guess it's about 3 hours from Williams to Boston, closer to 3 hours and 45 minutes to NYC...but far less connected to bus lines, probably - I may be wrong in this regard). I have no idea what Duke is near. Students from Amherst will occasionally go into NYC or Boston to see a show (I've been to each city twice this year) but usually don't feel the need to do so - we have a lot going on right here. So no, I don't think things get old, but some people might (I think they're loons :))</p>

<p>Actually, I believe Williams is closer to NYC than Amherst</p>

<p>Hm, googlemap puts it as 20 minutes longer from Williamstown to NYC than Amherst to NYC...so Amherst is a bit closer, but not significantly. Oddly enough, mileage wise, they're exactly the same (both 167). Do you know how public transport is from Williams to NYC?</p>

<p>Edit: Mapquest says it is 177 miles from Williamstown to NYC, 167 Amherst to NYC. I don't know which is correct, but either way, it's fairly negligible (if you have your own car). I hate the roads around Williamstown, but I don't know much about the route from there to NYC.</p>

<p>Either way, unregistered, it was aimed at discrediting my own opinion--an opinion which I believe I am entitled to make. All I said was that Amherst was not as prestigious as Duke and Williams in my area, and you took it upon yourself to verbally mock and attack that particular opinion of mine. Of course I got defensive--anyone would, seeing as you certainly didn't take the approach of "respectfully disagreeing" with what I had to say.</p>

<p>And, you certainly don't understand the circumstances surrounding my claim about Harvard admissions (try having a family friend who donated the football stadium who assured your acceptance if you applied EA after putting a call in to an adcom), because in all truth I fully understand the college process. And, I think you'd agree that regardless of how qualified you are, acceptance is never a sure thing based on merit; when you've got connections, however, particularly in the form of deep-pocketed alumni, the situation is entirely different. Sorry I didn't predict that someone would dig through my old posts in an attempt to discredit me--otherwise I may've been a bit more explicit in that particular post.</p>

<p>I haven't been aiming to offend (and anyone who has followed this argument could quite clearly see that the majority of "offensive" remarks have come from your end anyways), and quite frankly could care less what you think or have to say, but I didn't take well to someone mocking me (sarcastically, explicitly, whichever you'd title your approach) for expressing an opinion, particularly when I've spotted you doing the same to other people in Amherst v. Williams discussions on other threads, even if no one else has commented on your harsh attitude before.</p>

<hr>

<p>And, on a more relevant note, I'm not a Duke student just yet, Sonata, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. :) From what I've heard, though, Duke is a place for both fun and hard work--if you're worried about the atmosphere being too serious, you've got nothing to worry about at Duke.</p>

<p>So far as coming from a small school goes, my school has nothing on yours but is still pretty tiny (around 500 kids). I've been used to a small-town environment my entire life, and while I've liked it and, like you, excelled in it, I definitely took the approach of wanting a bigger environment in college. The smallest schools I looked at were Williams & Amherst (and I only ended up applying to Williams of those two), the largest Penn (I didn't want to go too big), and I definitely began to like the larger school environment better than the smaller one.</p>

<p>I definitely understand your thought of getting a better education at a LAC, however. When I looked at Williams, my dad absolutely loved it--the small class sizes, the individual focus, the tutorials--but in the end, having the most personal attention in an education isn't always enough. Ultimately, I only applied to Williams because my dad wouldn't let me -not- apply. I really felt contained in the environment of the school--it just felt so small, and after hearing from a few friends currently there who admitted that there wasn't a lot to do, I just knew I wouldn't be happy there. With Duke or any other larger university, the benefit is that you'll get an amazing education AND have the full college experience as well. My friend at Duke (and a friend who is a sophomore at Penn as well, actually) both love how they never seem to run out of people to meet, or organizations, clubs or events to go to. LACs have amazing resources given their small student body, but there are certain limits when your enrollment is as small as it is.</p>

<p>I think in the end, the difference between the quality of an education at a larger school (a top-tier one, that is) and that of an education at a LAC is minimal, and what one lacks in some areas it makes up for in others (one LAC may have more individual attention, but another university may have more medical research opportunities or better facilities and what-not). I'd say base your decision more on what sort of environment you want to be in, and if you're leaning towards going with a larger one after coming out of a small school, trust your gut. Visit both, and if you feel like there isn't much to do around Williams or Amherst (I know I did--without a car, at least, and a fair bit of travel), that may be your answer. Granted, Durham is nothing special, but Chapel Hill is great college town, and that's a very easy ride away.</p>

<p>And, on another note--if you haven't already, I'd recommend checking out the FOCUS program at Duke. It's one of the things I really like about the school: broad but interesting subject areas in clusters of around 30 students, with no more than 15 in each class. Coming from a small school, it seemed like the ideal way to make the transition into a larger university--a semester of small-group (yet intense) learning, and housing in a dorm with other members of your Focus group, already creating a smaller community unit inside of the larger dorm community.</p>

<p>I loved the second half of your post, sphairistic. Very informative and helpful. </p>

<p>My main issue with picking Duke, however, is that I feel as if I'm giving something up by not going to a top LAC. And yeah, I'll surely do FOCUS if I go to Duke.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's interesting to see who can better craft their argument: a student that is a product of Duke, or a student that is a product of Amherst.

[/quote]

That's dangerous ground, buddy. I wrote an authentically Greek Socratic dialogue for my philosophy course; making an argument on CC is easy. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>I was only kidding, warblersrule86. </p>

<p>What's your least-favorite thing about Duke?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Either way, unregistered, it was aimed at discrediting my own opinion--an opinion which I believe I am entitled to make.

[/quote]

You are entitled to make it - I am entitled to discredit it. It means very little to make a statement about your area when we don't know where that area is. "Massachusetts" is a bit vague - here in the Amherst area, Amherst College is certainly the most prestigious of the bunch, and I'd bet it would be (at least tied with Williams) most everywhere else in Massachusetts - and more prestigious than Duke, though likely not as well known to the general population (Duke is a much bigger sports powerhouse, after all). Amherst is smaller than Duke and Williams and Middlebury, which is the only reason I could even imagine you calling it "less prestigious" (which is why I emphasized the difference between prestige and "well known" - though I sincerely doubt it is "less well known" than Middlebury anywhere). </p>

<p>
[quote]
All I said was that Amherst was not as prestigious as Duke and Williams in my area, and you took it upon yourself to verbally mock and attack that particular opinion of mine. Of course I got defensive--anyone would, seeing as you certainly didn't take the approach of "respectfully disagreeing" with what I had to say.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I found your statement that Amherst was "a step below Middlebury" to be a bit of a hoot, that's all. It wasn't a respectful disagreement, nor do I see why it should have been.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And, you certainly don't understand the circumstances surrounding my claim about Harvard admissions (try having a family friend who donated the football stadium who assured your acceptance if you applied EA after putting a call in to an adcom), because in all truth I fully understand the college process. And, I think you'd agree that regardless of how qualified you are, acceptance is never a sure thing based on merit; when you've got connections, however, particularly in the form of deep-pocketed alumni, the situation is entirely different. Sorry I didn't predict that someone would dig through my old posts in an attempt to discredit me--otherwise I may've been a bit more explicit in that particular post.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Excuse me, Mr. Connections, but I doubt the validity of this story! A family friend donating money to a school with a $25 billion endowment will not ensure anything. He was a family friend, and not a parent. I doubt his giving would have been hindered by Harvard rejecting you, nor do I think it would have made a difference for them had you applied EA. Sorry.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I haven't been aiming to offend (and anyone who has followed this argument could quite clearly see that the majority of "offensive" remarks have come from your end anyways), and quite frankly could care less what you think or have to say, but I didn't take well to someone mocking me (sarcastically, explicitly, whichever you'd title your approach) for expressing an opinion, particularly when I've spotted you doing the same to other people in Amherst v. Williams discussions on other threads, even if no one else has commented on your harsh attitude before.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think I have only done a similar thing to one person, and it was a mother who was quite rude to me initially. I think a 50 year old going on a messageboard and mocking a teenager is very bad conduct, personally, but it was very nice of you to stick up for others! Most people who have spoken to me through PMs or any media would agree that I am usually perfectly reasonable (and have mainly only very positive things to say about Williams). </p>

<p>I think that all of the benefits you listed for Duke are compensated by the resources of the 5-college consortium, also.</p>

<p>Edit: This all said, I am very sorry to keep beating a dead horse and ruin someone else's thread (I know this isn't an appropriate place to carry on this conversation. If you want the last word, sphairistic, feel free to reply here, or you may PM me, but this is becoming tiring and old, and even I know when to quit.)</p>

<p>I may be biased, Sonata, but I really don't think you're giving anything up by picking Duke over a LAC. You'd be getting a different education, certainly, but not an inferior one; as I said before, what Duke would lack in some areas, it more than makes up for in others. You're more likely to succeed in an environment you'd be happy in, and if you think Duke fits that mold, I'd say you have your answer.</p>

<p>Eh, I'm not going to clutter up Sonata's thread here with as "in-depth" a rebuttal as yours, since I think your argument is clearly waning, and you seem intent on misinterpreting everything I said before. The fact of the matter is that I told you that Duke, Williams and Middlebury were considered more prestigious than Amherst in my area, and I think I'm qualified to make an opinion on the environment I live in without specifically outlining to you where in MA that is or qualifying it in any other way. I understand the difference between "well-known" and "prestigious," and still hold by my opinion, which I shouldn't have to explain to you. You can think what you want about the schools from your area, but forgive me if I think I can better understand the viewpoints of people in my own. I never questioned your opinion, and simply got irritated when you tried to discredit mine, when you know absolutely nothing about my school and the general opinions of the people in it (the ONLY community I was making any claim about).</p>

<p>And, so far as the connection goes, I see no way I could prove to you the extent of my connection, and I don't feel like I need to. Whether or not said alumni set me up with a private interview with an adcom over the summer and essentially told me I was in has absolutely nothing to do with the context of this argument. You introduced an old post of mine in an attempt to discredit a statement I made with regard to the prestige of schools in my area, in an attempt to mock me or cast an unintelligent light on me in some way, all because I stated my own opinion without infringing on your own opinion in any way, shape or form.</p>

<hr>

<p>And, Sonata, here's another interesting chart to glance at--
<a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a>
(^^ credit to MallomarCookie for finding this!)</p>

<p>Business, med & law school placement, with Williams at 5, Duke at 6, Amherst at 9. I think the important thing to take from this, however, is that all of them are in the top-ten in the country, so the difference is going to be minimal in the "advantage" you get from each school if you're headed to graduate school. All offer a great education, and if Duke is a better fit for you all-around minus your reservations, this shows that you're hardly at a disadvantage if you pass up the opportunity to go to an LAC over Duke. :D</p>

<p>

A prospie asked me that on Friday (Blue Devil Days), and it pretty much stumped me. I do think the study abroad process could be streamlined.</p>

<p>"Business, med & law school placement, with Williams at 5, Duke at 6, Amherst at 9. I think the important thing to take from this, however, is that all of them are in the top-ten in the country, so the difference is going to be minimal in the "advantage" you get from each school if you're headed to graduate school. All offer a great education, and if Duke is a better fit for you all-around minus your reservations, this shows that you're hardly at a disadvantage if you pass up the opportunity to go to an LAC over Duke."</p>

<p>Don't you think the sample population for schools like Amherst and Williams is too small for an adequate study? Also, I heard some of the research was done using facebook ;)</p>

<p>Mmm, you quite like attempting to discredit other arguments, don't you? Give up on one issue, and you jump right to the next.</p>

<p>From what I can see, the study is a simple percentage: the number of students attending top grad schools divided by the class size. The sample population is the class size, so I don't see how the statistical study could be found at fault because LACs have a small class size, and if the size is "too small for an adequate study," any other statistical study involving a graduating class at LACs would be null and void as well.</p>

<p>But, of course, if you'd care to share the source of the claim that the research was done using facebook, I'd take that into account before referring anyone to that chart. :)</p>

<p>The size may not be a factor as far as sample size is concerned; a percentage is a percentage. HOWEVER, it is very possible that the TYPE of school does have an effect. It could be reasonably asserted that students who want to get on a career track (which often leads through grad school) tend to go to big name research universities, whereas the LAC population tends have a higher percentage of undecided students or students who are nont necessarily aimed at such a career path. Thus, percentage of students headed to "top grad schools" from these LACs would be subject to some dispute. That is, the percentage may betray the true value of the LAC's ability to place its graduates in top grad schools because a smaller percentage of the LAC's students wanted to go to grad school in the first place. A more accurate study (albeit a much more difiicult, if not impossible, one) would be to take the precentage of students "intending to go to grad school" that are admitted to top grad schools, or simply take the acceptance rate of applicants from the LAC at top grad schools.</p>

<p>Yeah, I get what you're saying, zspot.</p>