Duke vs. California

<p>so i'm from so cal and i got into berkeley with the regents scholarship and i got a likely to duke and they are my top two choices as of now. I want to major in Economics and minor in Spanish. I know Berkeley has the Haas program (which isn't a guaranteed acceptance) and I'm paying in-state tuition, but I think Duke has more prestige and a nicer campus and smaller student body. I'm just so torn. Can Duke land good jobs in the business field after college?</p>

<p>The short answer is yes. </p>

<p>I have tons of friends in the econ department and they all have done a variety of prestigious internships with good companies (though fewer of them this year for obvious reasons). The fact is that even during economic downturns, companies such as UBS, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America, etc still recruit heavily at Duke. I would say that Duke graduates are viewed favorably by the business world.</p>

<p>how about in the biological sciences? i’m having trouble deciding between both and i’m also a regents scholar for berkeley but it’s only $1000.</p>

<p>If you wanna go premed, Duke is definitely the place to go over Berkeley. The advising system is great over here, and it’s really easy to do work in a hospital since it’s literally a 10 min walk from a dorm on West Campus. If you wanna be a chem major though, Berkeley is hands down better though it’s very competitive.</p>

<p>ooh nice thread :)</p>

<p>Regents scholarships vary I believe.</p>

<p>bummmmmmmmmmmp</p>

<p>yea i got the same dilemna cus i wanna do business too. I got into Cal OOS and they gave me zero finaid so unless someone convinces me that Cal is worth that much over Duke…I’m pretty sure I wanna do Duke economics and the markets and management cert.</p>

<p>Umm, I disagree with the point about Duke being better in the biological sciences than Berkeley. Make no mistake, they are both among the best, but there are very few fields for which Berkeley is not in the top 5 whereas there are very few fields for which Duke is.</p>

<p>“I got into Cal OOS and they gave me zero finaid so unless someone convinces me that Cal is worth that much over Duke”</p>

<p>For 50k, either way, I’d pick a private. FWIW, my D got into Duke, and Cal in-state, and STILL picked Duke. For 25k, I would have picked Cal.</p>

<p>belevitt: the post makes no assertions about the quality of Duke’s biological sciences vs that of Berkeley. Regarding the biological sciences, the post merely says that Duke’s pre-health advising is top-notch, which is certainly true and that there’s a hospital conveniently located on campus (which Berkeley I don’t think has) for getting involved in the health field which is also true.</p>

<p>Wait, what’s with the discrepancy then? If UCB is so good in the sciences, then how come their medical school acceptance rate is not that much better than the national average, while Duke’s is better to the point where even Duke is only 1/6 the size of UCB but still sends 2x as much grads to top-10 medical schools?</p>

<p>The discrepancy I would imagine could be in the quality of the advising that each school provides. I can’t say anything about Berkeley (seeing as how I don’t go there) but I know Duke’s prehealth advising office is great. They host many information sessions, help sessions, talks throughout the year to help students, they are available to talk when you need something, they have a pre-app myHPA program that help you put together the AMCAS months before it’s available so you can apply early, they hold mock interviews to help you get a feel for the process and to write you a good committee letter, etc. Most importantly, they have advisors who really care about students and their goals. </p>

<p>Of course it helps that Duke is a much smaller school and the actual number of premed who actually end up applying to med school is small compared to at Berkeley (I would imagine) so prehealth can devote more time, energy, and resources to each student.</p>

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<p>alexrj000001, </p>

<p>There are only 5 schools in the nation that are more prestigious than Berkeley, and they are HYPSM. Duke isn’t HYSPM, therefore, it’s not more prestigious than Berkeley. In fact, I would argue that it’s the other way around.</p>

<p>Duke strengths lie on its slightly stronger student body (on average) and bigger endowment fund. (But Berkeley gets funding from the government in addition to the money it earns from tie-up private companies, research patents, endowment and tuition fees.) Duke has a slightly stronger student than has Berkeley because it is a much smaller school. But other than those things, Duke are Berkeley are pretty even. Berkeley has many more resources as it is a leading research powerhouse. If you know how to tap these humongous resources that Berkeley has, you would crate breakthroughs. </p>

<p>If career is your motivation, Berkeley wins. There are more top bulge bracket firms that recruit at Berkeley than there are at Duke. Check the Vault’s - [Undergraduate</a> Recruiting at Vault’s Top Six Consulting Firms: Vault Management and Strategy Consulting Career Information](<a href=“http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=252&article_id=14364421&cat_id=1223]Undergraduate”>http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=252&article_id=14364421&cat_id=1223) Even McKinsey, a notorious consultancy firm when it comes to recruitment, recruits at Berkeley. </p>

<p>And, I think you need to know that Berkeley grads make more money than Duke grads do. Check Forbes - [In</a> Pictures: Top Colleges For Getting Rich - Forbes.com](<a href=“In Pictures: Top Colleges For Getting Rich”>In Pictures: Top Colleges For Getting Rich) Berkeley is ranked number 12 in the nation. Duke did not even make it in the top 20. </p>

<p>And Businessweek reported that Berkeley undergrad business is the 2nd best in the nation for Employer Survey Rank. It’s also 3rd in amongst the best undergrad business school in terms of being a feeder school to top MBA schools. <a href=“Bloomberg Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Bloomberg Businessweek - Bloomberg;

<p>On the other hand, there is very little evidence, if there really is one, that supports the claim that Duke is better than Berkeley. Maybe Duke would be more convenient as it’s smaller and you’d be more “cuddled” at Duke than you would at Berkeley. But other in general, Berkeley and Duke are peer schools. It’s just that, as a Cali resident, you get the best value for your money as your education at Berkeley would be cheaper. There is absolutely no reason to cross states and go head South to a school that is just as prestigious, if not less so, for a much higher price. Berkeley is amazing and its reputation transcends across many nations around the world. I can’t say the same thing for Duke. It’s a great school, but it’s not more prestigious as Berkeley.</p>

<p>^It’s just that, as a Cali resident, you get the best value for your money as your education at Berkeley would be cheaper. </p>

<p>It isn’t neccessary true. For our income bracket, we have to spend 25K at UC system. While it only costs us 20K-23K per year at Duke.</p>

<p>^ I was saying that to alexrj000001 who didn’t say he gets funding/scholarships from Duke.</p>

<p>RML, while I don’t dispute the fact that Berkeley has its strengths and are better than Duke in some areas I feel that I must offer a few points in rebuttal to your argument presented above: </p>

<ul>
<li><p>You offer no evidence that “there are only 5 schools in the nation that are more prestigious than Berkeley, and they are HYPSM.” In fact, I could name a few more that would been more pretigious depending on who you are surveying. This assertion, in fact, depends very much on whom you are asking and the context in which you frame the question. So I can’t imagine you can point to that as a measure of Berkeley being more pretigious than Duke. </p></li>
<li><p>The Vault article you cited actually does not back up any of your claims.

  1. McKinsey does not list Berkeley as a campus where they actively recruit
  2. Of all the firms listed in the article, 2 of them recruits at Duke, the same number as those that recruit at Berkeley</p></li>
    <li><p>Regarding the salary of grads, the article accompanying the ranking clearly states that the most important factor in the ranking is the income of grads after 10-20 years. Considering that Duke’s reputation as well as rankings rose in the past 20 years or so, it’s easy to imagine that the number of high quality graduates of the same caliber as those Duke is graduating today who graduated 10-20 years ago is rather small compared with that of Berkeley. But that’s not really a good reflection of the quality of education Duke offers today. Thus in this case, one should also consider Duke’s disadvantage of being a recent admittant to the ranks of elite universities. </p></li>
    <li><p>Regarding ranking of business schools. I will concede that Berkeley’s undergrad business education is better. But one also needs to consider that Duke doesn’t have a business major. The Fuqua school of business, while an excellent and internationally recognized business school, does not offer undergraduate education. Thus the basis of comparison here is a bit lopsided. In fact, even though Duke’s business education is probably not as good as Berkeley’s, I would still doubt the Employer Survey Rank because it doesn’t publish exactly what questions were asked those employers. It could be that the very nature of the question (rank schools with business majors) excludes Duke from consideration because of its lack of an undergrad business major. In that case, it’s not really an adequate measure of how well a Duke education prepares students for the business world. </p></li>
    </ul>

<p>Edit: would also like to point out that the OP wants to major in econ and a survey of rankings of the econ departments of the various universities would be better. </p>

<p>Like I said before, I’m not going to argue that Duke and Berkeley each have their strengths and one might be better than the other at certain aspects. I’d just like to point out that the evidence presented isn’t very convincing.</p>

<p>OMG! my typing sucks! hehe
sorry about that; can’t edit my post anymore. but i hope you get what i mean.</p>

<p>I think it’s funny how people can strategically choose citations that confirm their initial bias. I can easily find links that say the opposite.</p>

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<p>First, money isn’t everything. But in case it is to you, according to payscale.com, the world’s largest salary database of more than 16 million, the median Duke grads 5-15 years out makes $102,000. Cal? $91,400. Both are near the top.</p>

<p>[Duke</a> outearns Cornell to take salary championship - USATODAY.com](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-03-16-salary-madness_N.htm]Duke”>http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-03-16-salary-madness_N.htm) Duke outearns Cornell to take salary championship
[PayScale</a> - 2009 March Madness Predictions](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/2009-march-madness-predictions]PayScale”>PayScale - 2009 March Madness Predictions) 2009 NCAA Tournament Predictions By the Dollars</p>

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<p>Uh, McKinsey recruits HEAVILY at Duke. I know 4 people my year who got offers from McKinsey (and there may have been more). Trust me. ALL the top firms recruit at Duke and you can certainly land a good job in the business field after graduation. Even the link you provided doesn’t list Berkeley as a “core school” for McKinsey. Cal is listed as a “core school” for Bain and Monitor Group, while Duke has Bain and Mercer. It’s honestly pretty much a wash. At both schools, the top firms recruit and you’ll be prepared well. Berkeley is MUCH larger though, so perhaps more companies recruit since there are more people to interview. But also more people = more competition perhaps. Another thing to consider is location after graduation. If you want to stay in Cali, perhaps Cal will be better. Duke grads typically go to NYC, DC, Boston, Atl, Charlotte, RDU in that approx order. Certainly, you can go back to LA/San Fran/wherever assuming the firm has a branch there, but there is a much better Duke networking at work on the East Coast than Berkely, and there is a much better Cal networking in Cali obviously than Duke.</p>

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<p>Duke doesn’t have an undergrad business school…so, uh, yeah, Duke can’t be listed. But, according to the Wall Street Journal feeder rankings (taking business, law, and medical schools into account), Duke is 6th, while Cal is 41st.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf[/url]”>http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And prestige? It depends on department-by-department basis. Berkeley is obviously very highly regarded in a variety of disciplines as is Duke. Duke is probably harder to get into just because it’s private and smaller, but certainly you’ll get a quality education at Berkeley. Berkeley also is like 42% asian, 31% white, and 4% black. While Duke is about 28% asian, 50% white, and 10% black. So, that’s a pretty different composition if that’s important to you. Overall, though, Berkeley and Duke are both VERY prestigious and you’ll get into good grad schools, job offers, etc. assuming you do well at them. In the sciences, Berkeley certainly has a longer history and is larger so has done more well-known research, but Duke certainly is no slouch and on a per-student basis, research opportunities are everywhere.</p>

<p>Choose what school you think you’d be happiest at (assuming money is not an issue). You can’t go wrong with your choice.&lt;/p>

<p>Edit: Didn’t see SBR’s response above. Sorry for repeating some of it.</p>

<p>Thanks for your post. Here’s my response. Sorry that I have to write this whist i’m on bed. it’s 5 past two over here. but i’ll try to do this as best as i can. </p>

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<p>The peer review of the USNWR section is the part that says about academic prestige, not the overall ranking. The overall ranking was a ranking of college desirability or otherwise known as “college convenience”. For example, which school has lower acceptance rates, lower ratio of student to teachers, higher graduation rates, etc. would perform in overall ranking. But there’s a portion of the USNWR’s ranking about prestige. USNWR call is Peer Assessment Review. Here’s what it says:</p>

<p>*
1 Princeton University (NJ) 4.9
1 Harvard University (MA) 4.9
1 Stanford University (CA) 4.9
1 Massachusetts Inst. of Technology 4.9
5 University of California - Berkeley 4.8*
5 Yale University (CT) 4.8</p>

<p>7 California Institute of Technology 4.7</p>

<p>8 Columbia University 4.6
8 University of Chicago 4.6
8 Cornell University (NY) 4.6
8 Johns Hopkins University (MD) 4.6</p>

<p>12 University of Pennsylvania 4.5
12 University of Michigan – Ann Arbor * 4.5</p>

<p>14 Duke University (NC) 4.4
14 Brown Unversity (RI) 4.4</p>

<p>16 Darmouth College (NH) 4.3
16 Northwestern University (IL) 4.3
16 University of Virginia* 4.3</p>

<p>19 Carnegie Mellon University ¶ 4.2
19 University of California - Los Angeles* 4.2
19 University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill* 4.2 </p>

<p>Source: [National</a> Universities Rankings - Best Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-search]National”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-search)
*</p>

<p>Now, there’s also this survey amongst students who have at least a master’s degree conducted by a different survey institution and here’s what the results are:</p>

<p>*
Clearly, the prestige of Harvard (and to a lesser degree Yale and Stanford) is fairly universal across regions of the country. But there are distinctions in the top five within each region: Princeton, MIT, Penn State and Penn do best in the East, Duke and Texas A & M in the South, Michigan and Notre Dame in the Midwest, and Berkeley and UCLA in the West.</p>

<p>What about post-graduates themselves, who might be expected to know better than others what schools are prestigious, given that they applied to schools at least twice (for undergraduate and graduate work) and most likely spent a good deal of time evaluating schools? Here’s the list of schools most often mentioned by college graduates with at least some post-graduate education:</p>

<p>Harvard - 29%
Stanford - 27</p>

<p>Yale - 14
MIT - 11</p>

<p>Berkeley - 7
Princeton - 7
Michigan - 7</p>

<p>The biggest difference here is the relatively higher rating for Stanford, which almost ties Harvard among this group.</p>

<p>Survey Methods</p>

<p>The most recent results are based on telephone interviews with 1,003 national adults, aged 18+, conducted July 18-20, 2003. For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the margin of sampling error is ±3 percentage points. </p>

<p>Source: [Harvard</a> Number One University in Eyes of Public](<a href=“Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public”>Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public)
*</p>

<p>And even amongst the ordinary guys, Berkeley is more well-known than Duke. Here’s the script to support that:</p>

<p>*
All in all, what would you say is the best college or university in the United States? (open-ended responses)</p>

<p>Harvard University 24
Stanford University 11
Yale University 11
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) 6
University of California at Berkeley 4
Notre Dame University 4
Princeton University 4
University of Michigan 3
Duke University 3
University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) 3
University of Texas 2</p>

<p>Source: [Harvard</a> Number One University in Eyes of Public](<a href=“Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public”>Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public)
*</p>

<p>So, clearly, whichever social and academic groups you’re going to ask --ordinary guys on the street, highly educated people and even college/university presidents, scholars, deans, professors, etc.-- they’ll all tell you that Berkeley is more prestigious than Duke is.</p>