Duke's (in)ability to land top students

Colleges and Universities A-Z Duke University
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<p>Lol. Why can't I mention the data provided by the Duke Dean of Undergraduate admissions when discussing cross-applicant matriculation rates...he's probably the only person (aside from the dean of admissions at other schools) that has the information available to provide actual data - and by the way, no school challengd the claims made by Guttentag. Maybe a Dean at Duke wouldn't lie about such things...lol</p>

<p>So I guess, again, we're at a stalemate - Duke is hypothetically less preferably to Georgetown (even though it is better than Georgetown academically in the late 20th and 21st century) based on a survey of 3000 students at top high schools. For students that actually get accepted to Georgetown and Duke (lucky them!) the majority, in reality, choose Duke. This also leads to Duke's student body being statistically stronger.</p>

<p>Of course I read out facts about Duke ad nausuem - its only to show people who don't know what they are talking about that Duke has some of the smartest students in the nation - the only undergrad schools more academically competetive are those at HYPSM. Whats better - my saying Duke is a great school, or my showing Duke is a great school?</p>

<p>btw sakky is a really smart guy</p>

42

<p>There may not be any statistics to show how many are students like my son - those with 800 SAT's and numerous accomplishments who were recruited by but did not choose to apply to those higher ranked colleges for various reasons - political climate, the climate of the region, and perceived fit gleaned from personal recommendations (including a sister who attended one of them)and college guides. If he hadn't gotten into Duke, he would have preferred UCLA to the Ivy Leagues.</p>

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<p>My daughter's freshman roommate turned down Harvard for Duke because after spending weekends at both, she realized that Harvard was too "stuffy" for her. She could not imagine herself fitting in well there.</p>

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<p>ditto for me, iggal. My son had 800 verbal, 800 writing, and 720 math a 3.9 gpa at a competitive private high school, high 700's on SATIIs and five 5's on various AP tests. He did not even apply to any Ivy League schools, (although they were interested in him), because he thinks they are too elitist. He is a very happy freshman at Duke. If he hadn't gotten in there, he would have gone to Northwestern.</p>

45

<p>This study didn't say everyone turned Duke down to attend a place like Harvard--just the vast majority of applicants. In the case of those choosing between Harvard and Duke, 3 people (out of 100) would forgo the prestige of Harvard and attend Duke, while 46 people would choose Duke over Cornell. (Memie daughter's roommate would be 1 of the 3)
TTP, any chance you are on the Duke payroll? If not, you must be their biggest cheerleader.</p>

46

<p>I think as you get older, you realize that "prestige" is not as important as happiness. My son was wise enough to realize that Duke was a unique university -- it has a true "collegial" atmosphere. My son went to two Duke parties in our area before he went to orientation. Duke is a family, not just a university.
I wish the Dukies on this website would stop lamenting the fact that they are not Harvard and start celebrating that fact.</p>

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<p>The Cornell example is the most egregious mistake on the study, which hypothesizes that 45 percent choose Duke over Cornell when in realiy over 75% chose Duke over Cornell. Even though the error with the Georgetown prediction is pretty large too. </p>

<p>Its easy to be a Duke fan - a school with incredibly strong students, great placement, lots of pride - and the fact that there are a somewhat decent number of posters on this site who try to pretend Duke isn't an ivy caliber school and hasn't changed since like...1975 I guess, in atleast pizzaguys case</p>

48

<p>oh and smarty</p>

<p>I'm on the Duke payroll as much as US News, Wall Street Journal, and THES are...</p>

49

<p>The title of this thread is unbelievably insulting and arrogant. So what if students at Duke have slightly lower scores than those of Harvard, Stanford, or Yale? They're still among the best in the entire world, and their life chances are probably just as good.</p>

50

<p>The cross admit data tells you nothing about the relative quality of schools.</p>

<p>However, since some fell compelled to criticize the Revealed Preferences study because they do not like the results, I feel compelled to point out a few things. </p>

<p>The Revealed Preferences study carefully documented methodology, sample, sample size, and results. Against this we have an assertion, offered with no description of methods, numbers of students involved, or source of the data. We infer that it was based on cards returned by some students who declined their admissions offers from Duke-indicating where they are going instead, and some returned by students who chose Duke-indicating where else they were admitted. In the RP study, since they went through the guidance counsellors, they actually knew the true admissions results for the students in the study. Duke definitely does not have a complete set of results for either the students it enrolls or for those who decline their offers.</p>

<p>The data is a number of years old. This is relevant only if there is evidence that the results would be different now, and in the postulated direction. Given the amount of data presented here- i.e. none- a Cornell booster could just as well claim that "that data is old, now 80% of cross admits would choose Cornell". In the absence of data, and there appears to be none, the Cornell booster and the Duke booster could make the same claim, neither can be proven wrong, and, until they produce data, neither can prove they are right. We just don't know.</p>

<p>I interpret the statement in the Duke magazine as studiously vague. They could have at least given methods and precise numbers for the data they have, but chose not to do so. Hardly surprising that no respectable college would rise to the bait to challenge a vague and undocumented assertion made in an alumni magazine. Why bother?</p>

<p>For those who choose Duke, and are happy there, why should they care that others might make a different choice?</p>

51

<p>Afan, Guttentag said of people admitted to both Duke and Cornell, 75% of those students choose Duke.</p>

<p>Doesn't sound that vague to me?</p>

<p>Anyways, if, for some reason, more students chose Cornell over Duke (which isn't true) I guess the weaker ones (statistically...) are choosing Cornell - obviously this doesn't make sense</p>

<p>All schools I'm discusisng are excellent schools, top of the top, best schools in the world - but I enjoy splitting hairs and arguing...</p>

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<p>1) For all practical purposes, it's impossible to verify any assertion that "of people admitted to both X and Y, 75% choose X." Guttentag's numbers may in the right ballpark, but ultimately they're essentially propaganda -- like any similar statements made by his counterparts at a competing university.</p>

<p>2) Duke has a better national reputation than it did 20 years ago. But not nearly as much difference compared to 1999. The reality is that reputations change more slowly than actualy quality -- over 20-30 year periods or more. Duke has been a top-"quality" institution for a long time.</p>

<p>3) The Duke administration has done an excellent job of promoting the school. Top students are offered merit scholarships to attend, and many eventually go on to win major awards (Putnam, Goldwater, Rhodes, etc). This boosts the university's visibility, but at the same time may mask an underlying reality that a small subset of students are disproportionately represented among these award winners.</p>

<p>4) Of course the title of this thread is offensive and ridiculous, and there are "top" students who can be found all over Duke. That's obvious.</p>

<p>But who really cares??? To me, it seems like every Duke student obviously "chose" to be there, regardless of the other schools they were accepted or rejected by. Most of them appear to be very enthusiastic about it. I would hope that this should be the most important factor. Composing angry responses that "the Dean at Duke said our yield vs school X is Y%," "we're much better than Georgetown now," etc only appears to uncover some underlying insecurities that IMO don't need to be there...</p>

53

<p>Try comparing US News metrics for Duke, or Penn, or Cornell, or Brown from 1999. Trust me, they'll be quite different.</p>

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<p>Duke's been ranked in the top 10 since 1985 - so its been considered one of the best schools for a couple of decades, but it takes longer than that for the entire public to recognize any such thing</p>

<p>Duke has been usually ranked with or above Cornell and Brown since 1995, around tied with Penn the past 6 years</p>

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<p>"Try comparing US News metrics for Duke, or Penn, or Cornell, or Brown from 1999. Trust me, they'll be quite different."</p>

<p>FYI, their ranking was #7 in 1999, and #8 in 2007. Does this mean Duke's quality and reputation are getting worse? Of course not -- the methodology of those silly rankings changes more than any true changes in any institution.</p>

<p>My unsolicited advice = spend more time enjoying college, and less worrying what others think about your school.</p>

56

<p>Also, I'd like to point at that only one of last year's three Rhodes scholars was here on a merit scholarship -- the rest chose to attend without money. In the past it wasn't uncommon for all the Rhodes winners to be merit scholars at Duke, so perhaps last year is an indication of the changing quality of Duke's reputation/student body.</p>

57

<p>Personal note:</p>

<p>S was accepted to Georgetown and Duke. He did not go to Georgetown. He never even visited Georgetown.</p>

<p>Who cares?</p>

<p>As discussed before, the preference study did not apply to him at all. He probably would have been accepted at some of the other schools that some students prefer. He preferred not even to apply to most of the so called preferred schools. Was he a "weaker" candidate? Not really. He applied to schools that he was interested in and is attending the one he liked best.</p>

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<p>Last year Duke had three Rhodes scholars but only one of them was on merit scholarship (found out via Duke Chron)</p>

59

<p>Thought,</p>

<p>I guess we are reading different articles. The one I am talking about was published in the Jan-Feb 2006 issue of Duke Magazine (v92, issue 1). In it there is the statement</p>

<p>
[quote]
Based on acceptance rates, Duke continues to fall behind a few choice schools in terms of selectivity. Against five of those schools in particular, Duke faces substantial recruiting obstacles. According to matriculation data, Duke is successful in wooing to campus only about 15 percent of those admitted students who are also accepted to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, or Stanford. Against the next group--Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, and Penn--Duke does better, enrolling about 50 percent. In recruiting battles against the third five--Georgetown, Chicago, Washington University, Northwestern, and Cornell--Duke is successful about 80 percent of the time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In the preceeding paragraph, the author quotes both Guttentag, and the Provost, Peter Lange. </p>

<p>The paragraph quoted above does not indicate who is the source of the figures cited- Guttentag, Lange, or someone else. </p>

<p>The article does not report the year(s) from which these data, such as they are, were derived. </p>

<p>It does not say what percentage of admitted students provided information about where else they were admitted. </p>

<p>Further, it does not indicate whether the comparison with, for example, the "third five" means that Duke wins 80% against each of the schools listed (an odd coincidence if true, one would expect the percentages to vary from one place to another, not be the same at all 5), or it means that if you look at the cross admits against all five the average win rate is 80% for Duke.</p>

<p>Like I said, vague.</p>

<p>If you have another source of Guttentag's comments, please cite it.</p>

60

<p>Hey, I didn't look at that one, I'm talking about the one Byerly recently posted from the Duke Chronicle to gloat about how Harvard is still stronger than Duke</p>