We’re pretty convinced that we need our two college student boys (thus, by definition, knuckleheads) to execute two documents with us – an Advance Health Care Directive and a Durable Power of Attorney. I can find a free version of the first at this site (recommended widely) – http://www.caringinfo.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1 , but I’ve not yet found a site where we can download a boilerplate Durable Power of Atty.
Can anyone point us in the right direction?
Thanks in advance.
there was just this thread which had some information on this http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1907040-legal-docs-for-college-freshman-p1.html
I read the link posted by kiddie above, but I am still confused… My child will still be 17 when she goes to college late August. Is it legally binding to do these forms before they are 18? And are these forms valid legally if we do them DIY, without an attorney present?
@Lindagraf, I’m not sure about the issue of your child signing these forms as a minor. On the other issue, in my state at least, a lawyer does not need to draft the document or otherwise be involved with the process. Witnesses are needed for the signing, however (and probably notarization, too).
@Lindagaf - I don’t think you need to think about it until you D is 18. Right now, she is still a minor so you won’t run into issues with making decisions for her. But as soon as she is 18 be ready for all sorts of road blocks.
There are entire websites set up to do legal documents without a lawyer, so it would not appear to be necessary to have a lawyer. We actually did have a lawyer draft it but that was because we were already having other work done, and we have legal insurance that made it very inexpensive.
@AsleepAtTheWheel you don’t need an attorney present, just a notary, a bank can certify your POA, attorney are only used for the language as a POA can have many things written on it. I have some drafts at work of the difference of POA or how they should look, I won’t be able to post them until Monday if that’s what you want?
As much as we attorneys like to think we are magical, powerful beings, having an attorney present doesn’t make a document any more legal than not having one there. Preparing the document is a different matter. If the attorney is also a notary, the attorney can notarize the signature thus making it self authenticating should there ever be a question that the signature is valid.
A 17 year old signing a POA wouldn’t do much since the parents of a minor already have the right to decide health care and other legal matters for a minor child. If the POA lists someone else as in charge, there would probably be basis for the parent to contest the document as signed by a minor. If signed before 18 is it valid after 18? It would be safer to just wait until she is 18 to avoid the issue. State law probably gives you the same rights as the POA as next of kin to the 18 year old. It is just easier to have the POA and not have to prove you are next of kin in an emergency, and for some reason people seem to think the POA is a golden ticket. You want to be waiving that golden ticket in the case of an emergency.
Your 17 can take the documents with her and sign them when she turns 18. She can sign them in a different state and have the signature notarized in a different state. That is not a problem.
This link brought up some versions. I clicked on the one for my state and it seemed okay. I did have to click on several of the links before I found the actual document.
I don’t think 18 year olds should blindly sign a POA to a parent without knowing what they are doing. Signing away your rights is a big deal. Make sure your child knows what he’s allowing you to do by signing - make financial decisions in his name, incur debt in his name, sign tax returns, etc. He’s trusting you, but make sure he knows it. You don’t want him signing such a document in the future without knowing the importance of it and thinking “Oh, I did this before and it was easier for my parents to do all this financial stuff, so I’ll sign one now and let my accountant/friend/bookie handle everything for me.”
@raulhumber2 – Thanks. If you post a link (or links) here on Monday, that would be great.
@twoinanddone – Also thanks. Good link. We’re in CA, with kids in school in GA and MA. I was thinking of executing the CA document, which I’m guessing (as these documents are pretty generic) would be valid even if CA resident is out of state.
Contracts made in one state are valid in other states. In non-emergency situations, it is unlikely to be a problem. In emergency situations, it is sometimes easier to present the document the hospital is used to seeing. However, if it truly an emergency, they aren’t going to wait for any document.
We did a POA for DD when she was in the Peace Corps. It was notarized.
I would advise you to get at least five original copies done. If you have to use it, many places want you to send them an original copy.
I’m very confused as to why you would do this.
Good for all adults to have a health care directive in place. I assume you intend to be the name on their forms. I also assume you have your own. Remember, they are adults and should be leery of giving parents too much control. Perhaps they could/should name each other???
Regarding the power of attorney- be careful as state rules vary. As a young person I certainly would not wish to give my parents control over my assets in the event of incapacity. Also, they should be careful of what happens once the power is given- they do not want you to have forever rights when they recover. I know you would want to be able to use their accounts to pay their bills- but at this age are they financially independent?
As a parent I understand your wishes to take care of your sons but I disagree with you on this. The probabilities of adverse event s requiring a POA are small. The Peace Corps example is different. Once given it may be forgotten by them and give you too much power in the future. We just redid our documents after having moved to Florida from Wisconsin a few years ago and discovered several differences in how things are done. They still are likely to marry, change states and all sorts of things. Also- we were told to NOT give the POA documents to the named person- keep them ourselves. If you get your sons to do this I would hope they, not you, have access to the non health care forms.
My advice to you is to skip attempts at control. Their assets at this time are likely not worth worrying about. It is a good idea for them to have legal documents on file with their health care directives, good for you to have a copy. This way their wishes, not yours, would be enforced in the event of an improbable scenario. The reason to have a will (as long as you are thinking morbidly) is to avoid probate so the heirs, not the government, gets the estate.
A good idea to spend some time discussing pros and cons of various health care decisions. At their ages different decisions should be made than at ours. Remember that at this time you are still next of kin and likely would have a say unless their documents overrule you.
btw- our sons will do better than we think. Our son was still 16 when he started college. We had no say in his courses or getting info about him. He couldn’t rent an apartment even with our backup until he was 18 per his college town’s way of doing things (made it easier to say no for his second year). As physicians we did request that we be given permission for health care info. Long after college he finally dissociated his bank account from ours- our monthly statement showed how much he was adding and not spending. Being under 18 meant we needed a parent on his account- they goofed when he finally wanted to cash a check in college as it was supposed to beset up to not require a parent signature. I presume you sons are past this.
Long post here. So many things we parents need to let go of. So many things not worth worrying about. The one thing I would nag about is filling out a form for health care wishes.
@wis75 I see less as a way to "maintain control " over my children and more of an assist if they need it for things like assisting with a passport that gets lost while out of the country, assisting with legal documents and bill paying if unable to access accounts ,etc. It truly is a personal decision to be discussed amongst the parties involved. What works for one family, may not work for another. I’m so glad that you found a plan that worked for your family, but I believe the original question was where to locate such documents , not opinions on whether people felt that they were necessary . There may be factors at play that posters may decide that they don’t want or need to disclose on a public forum.
Not sure you need the POA for situations that may arise- perhaps LIMITED.
Revise your definition of family. You no longer have that parents/children nuclear one. Transition to being separate. Ask your sons how they feel about things. Treat them like adults- they will behave more like adults when given equal footing in such matters. State your case and see if they want to follow through on things. As my son would say as a young child, you are not the boss of them.
The POA we had for DD’s time in the Peace Corps was dated…had a start date, and an end date. It was not a forever POA.
@wis75 You are making an assumption that these discussions have not already taken place or that they are not the ones asking for the POA . Making assumptions is not a good habit to fall into. Again, what works for one family doesn’t work for all. Also, I don’t feel the need to revise my definition of family. I wouldn’t begin to know how your family works , nor should I . I need to only concern myself with what works for mine.
We got one for D1 when she studied abroad. It was not dated, I still have it several years later. Have never used it.
This is one of many articles I’ve seen in the general press about the need for a POA:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2014/08/15/two-documents-every-18-year-old-should-sign/#68fb3b9afefd
It’s of course not a need to control. Don’t patronize (or project). It’s the desire to be able perform some financial or other legal transactions for my son in the event he’s incapacitated or if he’s in some sort of a fix and needs immediate help. Unlikely? Yes. But I work in the operating room, and I routinely see kids/parents/families in situations that were felt to be unlikely. It may be a 1% risk, but if it happens to your kid the other 99% are irrelevant.
And as I wrote in the original post, I have two boys. They’re wonderful kids, but they’re boys. So they’re knuckleheads until proven otherwise – puts them at more risk.
DD had to agree to the power of attorney. Otherwise we would not have been able to do it.
This was suggested by Peace Corps because someone had to handle all financial, tax and other issues that might come up while the kid was away. We filed taxes, paid bills, and handled credit card fraud on behalf of DD.
In all cases, we needed that POA to do so.
I actually agree with wis75 that having a routine POA is not a good idea.
The OP asked for a general POA. I just think those are wrong (not talking about the Peace Corps situation where an adult is leaving the country and there may be a need for emergency arrangements). Having a POA might be more convenient if the parents have some legal documents that need to be signed, like bonds cashed in or a trust that the student is receiving, doing tax documents, or transfers, but is convenience a good reason for the parents to take over these responsibilities? If the student was living at home or close, would the parent still want to take these responsibilities from the adult students?
I used to approve POAs for one party to take sign loans for another. Usually it was a case of someone being in the military and his spouse taking out a loan in both their names or using a POA to give a mortgage. They had them, I approved the loans because the POA was good, but I never thought it was a good idea. The soldier could come back to a BIG debt and it was all legal because he had given the POA to his wife (or parents, or ‘really good friend’). Some parents are not trustworthy yet it is hard for an 18 year old to say “No, I don’t want to give you this control over my financial life.”
I have less trouble granting the medical POA because the law covers a lot of it. Parents decide for minors, next of kin for others. If the next of kin is still the parent, you haven’t done anything with the medical POA except established that the parent is next of kin. May save a few minutes, but most hospitals and ER’s are pretty familiar with who can give consent for medical treatment or no treatment. It is less clear who the next of kin is for an older person who might have survived all her own children but has some grandchildren and maybe a sibling. Who’s making decisions if she can’t? The POA clears that up. For 18 year olds who have never been married? Law is pretty clear it is a parent. If you give the medical POA to someone other than next in line, then yes, it has a little bit of power. Usually the patient retains the medical decision making power, and if it is a true emergency, the doctors and hospitals are going to go ahead with the best treatment anyway.
I don’t agree with wis75 that the documents should be with the signer and not the one being granted the power. If the student/son/patient has the documents (assume at the dorm/house/lockbox) how will that be helpful for anyone trying to transact business or in an emergency? If the parent doesn’t have the document, he can’t do anything so what was the point of signing the documents? If the child is only going to provide the POA when he needs something done, he should not use a general POA but a specific one to cash in the bond, sell the property, take a loan, file the taxes. It should be limited to that event and dated and would have to be given to the parent at the time needed. Probably saves no time and is more of a hassle than if the student just signs the papers, contacts the bank, does the taxes himself. With the marvels of telephones, express mail, notaries everywhere, it’s not that difficult to arrange documentation.
I can’t see what parents would be using these POAs to do while their children are available to sign for themselves.