EA acceptance/deferral for OOS

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
41

“Also, I imagine that very few people will apply to HYPSM etc. universities who don’t want to go there, so those schools don’t really have that problem.”

I agree with HYPSM and said as much. Applicant to those schools typically consider them as identical substitutes and would be equally happy attending any of those 5 schools. The yield for all 5 of those schools, despite not have ED to help them lock students in and force them to attend, is well over 60%. But beyond those 5, interest among applicants declines very significantly. Most other universities would be considered as “plan B”.

Brown, Chicago, Columbia and Penn admittedly have highly engaged applicant pools. But that is not the case with most other elites, including the likes of Carnegie Mellon, Cornell, Dartmouth, Duke, Emory, Northwestern, Penn, Rice, Vanderbilt, WUSTL etc…

Below are the non-ED yield rates for many of those universities. As you can see, even with their extremely generous financial aid packages, their non-ED yield rates fall below 40%, clearly proving that they receive many applications from students who don’t really want to go there if given the choice. The admissions offices at those universities, like that of Michigan, will look for signs of demonstrated interest and will turn away many high stat applicants in favor of “safer bets”.

Cornell: 39% yield
Dartmouth: 39% yield
Northwestern: 33% yield
Duke: 32% yield
Vanderbilt: 28% yield
Rice: 27% yield
CMU: 26% yield
WUSTL: 25% yield

42

As you said,

They’re basically in the same boat as Michigan, whose yield stands at 40%. Their overall yield looks a lot higher because of ED, which Michigan doesn’t have. The people who really want to go to those schools you listed will ED to them, so they’re not counted in this pool. Those people would probably have attended even if it wasn’t ED.
I think people automatically think of Michigan as a safety, because it’s a public school and until only last year had an acceptance rate in the 30s. AFAIK only Berkeley has escaped that public school stigma, but I bet in the next couple of years the same will happen to Michigan.

43

But smartypants, I was referring to how schools like Cornell, Dartmouth, Northwestern etc… handle RD applicants. Like Michigan, they will deny many highly qualified applicants in favor of “safer” applicants because of demonstrated interest. Naturally, ED applicants are handled very differently since they are honor bound to attend if admitted.

That said, I agree that in the next 5 or so year, Michigan will no longer be approached as a safety, or even target for that matter, by high stat OOS applicants.

44

I think we’re just violently agreeing at this point.

45

Some observations:

  1. Many of our nation's most elite schools do not consider an applicant's interest when reaching admission decisions.
  2. By contrast, some top schools factor an applicant's demonstrated interest into their decision calculus. Even these schools, however, do not necessarily accord the same importance to demonstrated interest. Some routinely reject, defer, or waitlist high-stat applicants for fear they will attend more prestigious universities. Other schools in this category follow this practice less routinely.
  3. Generally speaking, schools with lower admission rates and higher yields care less about demonstrated interest than schools with higher admission rates and lower yields. This general rule is subject to exceptions. It’s also difficult to apply because some schools have relatively low admission rates and relatively low yields. To further complicate matters, over enrollment can temporarily lead to more zealous yield protection.
  4. It is difficult to compare the yield of a private university to a public university since public universities typically have a much higher yield for in-state students than they do for out-of-state students. Thus, if a public university has a 40 percent overall yield, its yield of in-state students may be considerably higher than 40 percent just as its yield of out-of-state students may be substantially lower than forty percent.
46

@brantly my child experienced the exact same scenario. Many of those admitted EA first round were legacy, despite lower credentials. My child was deferred initially and after guidance called admissions to reaffirm his interest in UMich and promising a commitment to attend if admitted, an acceptance was received. The number of legacy admittance at UMich is above and beyond that which I’ve seen at any other school!

47

@10isMOM
Interesting. Wonder if it’s the same HS. In the northeast, I assume?

And, yes, the legacy admits (including sibs) were off the charts. Students whose stats were nowhere near competitive. I have a theory …

48

@brantly My children all attended a top ranked public HS on Long Island where Michigan draws heavily from about 5 or 6 schools.

49

"Many of our nation’s most elite schools do not consider an applicant’s interest when reaching admission decisions’

Can you name me the “many” that don’t espenser? I cannot think of more than 7 (HYPSM Caltech and Chicago). Any university with ED by definition cares more about applicant interest. Any university that has an ED acceptance rate that is 3-4 times higher than the RD acceptance rate, and that enrolls 40% or more of its freshman class via ED is very conscious of demonstrated interest. There is no other way of slicing it. The figures below prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that those universities really do care about demonstrated interest.

Cornell University (my alma matter), according to the 2014 CDS:
ED acceptance rate: 28%
RD acceptance rate: approximately 9%
ED class as a percentage of the Freshman class: 42%

Dartmouth College, according to the 2014 CDS:
ED acceptance rate: 28%
RD acceptance rate: approximately 9%
ED class as a percentage of the Freshman class: 41%

Duke University, according to the 2013 CDS:
ED acceptance rate: 30%
RD acceptance rate: approximately 9%
ED class as a percentage of the Freshman class: 44%

Northwestern University, according to the 2014 CDS:
ED acceptance rate: 35%
RD acceptance rate: approximately 9%
ED class as a percentage of the Freshman class: 46%

University of Pennsylvania, according to the 2014 CDS:
ED acceptance rate: 25%
RD acceptance rate: approximately 9%
ED class as a percentage of the Freshman class: 54%

Emory, Vanderbilt, WUSTL all have similar stats. Those figures prove that the most elite universities, other than HYPSM and perhaps Caltech, really care about demonstrated interest. Of course Michigan is no exception in this regard, but since Michigan does not employ ED, it really must work a little harder to establish demonstrated interest. When a university admits 40-55% of its class via ED, it can afford to care a little less about RD applicants’ demonstrate interest since ED takes care of that on its own. There is nothing wrong with what schools like Cornell, Dartmouth, Duke, Emory, Michigan, NU, Penn, Vanderbilt, WUSTL etc… are doing mind you. Universities do not want to waste precious acceptances on students who have no intention or interest in enrolling.

“It is difficult to compare the yield of a private university to a public university since public universities typically have a much higher yield for in-state students than they do for out-of-state students. Thus, if a public university has a 40 percent overall yield, its yield of in-state students may be considerably higher than 40 percent just as its yield of out-of-state students may be substantially lower than forty percent.”

I am not sure I agree on that one either. Private elites are so wealthy and so generous with aid that, as many on CC often point our, in most instances, the cost of attendance is the same as attending an in-state flagship. Michigan’s yield last year, despite admitting a very talented class that is indistinguishable from that of the other universities listed above, is a testament to how well Michigan is determining “demonstrated interest”. I have to give it to the admissions office. Those guys know what they are doing.

50

10isMOM and brantly, Michigan’s reputation in the tri-state area is very strong, thanks in part to its large alumni network among the social elite in that area. As such, I am not surprised to see that many schools in those areas have strong ties with the University. Kudos to the alums for getting involved, and to Michigan and the high schools who work hard on developing those ties, to recognize the value of such a strong relationship. Well done indeed!

51

The fact that applicants demonstrate interest by applying ED or EA does not mean their demonstrated interest will be taken into account during the admission process. Whether or not this will be the case seemingly depends upon the admission criteria a school identifies in section C7 of its Common Data Set. Hence, I observed in an earlier post that many excellent schools do not consider demonstrated interest.

My rough reckoning suggests that the following schools do not take demonstrated interest into consideration: Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago (according to another poster), MIT, Cal Tech, Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Amherst, Williams, Pomona, Bowdoin, Berkeley, Virginia, UCLA, and North Carolina. Columbia and Duke may fall into this group as well.* (Please correct me if I am wrong.)

If my quick research is on target, it appears that more than half of the top-fifteen National Universities, four out of the five top Liberal Arts Colleges, and all of the nation’s top-five public universities except Michigan fall within the class of schools that do not consider an applicant’s demonstrated interest. So, yes, I think it is fair to say that demonstrated interest plays no role in the admission decision at “many” excellent schools.

I am not alone in this opinion. According to the About Education website, “Many of the country’s most selective colleges do not consider demonstrated interest when making admission decisions.”* Hence, for example, Stanford advises its applicants, “Please do not feel compelled to contact us to demonstrate your interest in Stanford … We don’t keep records of prospective student contacts with our office."**

Whether or not a school considers demonstrated interest can be of immense practical significance to an applicant. Applicants need to work harder at schools that consider demonstrated interest. But there is no one size fits all approach. At one school, a high-stat applicant may have to confirm he will attend if admitted. At another school, a campus visit, attendance at a college fair, or a compelling essay, etc. may suffice.

No matter how we parse the statistics, there are fundamental differences between the yield at a public and private university. Thus, the yields at the University of Alaska Fairbanks and Princeton are 73.1 percent and 65.5 percent respectively.*** But the higher yield at Alaska does not, by itself, make it a more desirable school than Princeton. It simply reflects the high yield of in-state students at public universities, whether they are located in Alaska or Alabama.

In my view, this fundamental distinction becomes especially important when considering the yield of high-stat out-of-state students at a public university. For these students, the applicable metric is not the overall yield, which includes in-state as well as out-of-state students. Rather, it is the yield for out-of-state applicants alone. My quick research has not revealed this statistic for Michigan. Does anyone know what it is?

52

@10isMOM

Yup. Same. Not LI, but in the metro-NY area, top-ranked HS that you’ve probably heard of. UMich is heavily invested in legacies in the NY tri-state area to keep the pipeline of donations flowing. They have a huge capital campaign to fund. There was a huge Delta between the legacies accepted EA and the high-stats students deferred EA last year. Curious to see what happens this year.

53

espenser, in retrospect, I think your statement was correct. But just because a university claims it does not take demonstrated interest into account does not make it so. That being said, in addition to HYPSM and Caltech, which I had mentioned above, I agree that the UCs, UNC, Georgetown, Chicago, Brown, CMU and Rice (and possibly a couple others) do not care about demonstrated interested. As such, there are more than enough top universities to make your statement entirely valid.

However, Cornell, Dartmouth, Duke, Northwestern, Michigan, Penn, UVa, Vanderbilt and WUSTL care about demonstrated interest, whether they admit it or not. The admissions data is conclusive on this. It proves it beyond any doubt.

I am not sure about LACs.

“No matter how we parse the statistics, there are fundamental differences between the yield at a public and private university. Thus, the yields at the University of Alaska Fairbanks and Princeton are 73.1 percent and 65.5 percent respectively.*** But the higher yield at Alaska does not, by itself, make it a more desirable school than Princeton. It simply reflects the high yield of in-state students at public universities, whether they are located in Alaska or Alabama.”

Again, I agree that in many cases, public universities should be subject to different standards. Alaska, Alabama, Nebraska among others certainly fall into that category. My objection is to lumping Michigan with public universities in this case. I do not think Michigan falls in the same category, primarily because a large chunk (over 40% of last year’s freshman class) of Michigan’s student body is from OOS, and many in-state students have the option of going to excellent universities in other parts of the country thanks to their strong academic credentials. That is not to say that the comparison is entirely apple to apple. Michigan does have an advantage with almost 60% of its freshmen hailing from Michigan. Thanks to its strong regional reputation and very affordable price tag, the yield rate for in-state students is uncharacteristically high. However, the opposite is true for the remaining 40%+ who are OOS and view the Midwest with apprehension, and are faced with very high costs of attendance with uncompetitive financial aid packages (although that is admittedly changing quickly and for the better). Any advantage Michigan may benefit from when compared to most of its private peers is nullified when factoring in their ED advantage. This point is far less clear than the one above and is merely based on my personal observations.

54

The CDS saying they find interest to be not considered means they do not track it at all. Perhaps if you are in contact with your admissions counsellor it makes you stick in their mind, but if they put “not considered” in the CDS, it means they don’t track it. The only time they consider it is for ED, when you are basically saying "I’m a sure thing. But this isn’t the same as “demonstrated interest”. It is a commitment.

55

HRSMom, for a university to admit that demonstrated interest matters is unusual and, let us be honest, reflects poorly on the institution. But even if a university does not value demonstrated interest and focuses entirely on merit as all those universities claim they do, the fact that half of their class is chosen from the ED applicant pool, and you have to admit 30% of the ED applicant pool (compared to fewer than 10% of the RD applicant pool) to get there, you are clearly giving a huge advantage to students with proven demonstrated interested.

56

I think it’s helpful for applicants and their parents to distinguish yield protection from admission criteria when considering the issue of demonstrated interest.

While all schools may design early admission policies to maximize yield, not all schools consider demonstrated interest when making admission decisions. Thus, the fact that an applicant demonstrates interest by applying early does not necessarily mean that a school will take that interest into account when deciding whether to admit that applicant. Some schools will; others won’t. Hence, the observations I made in post 50.

This distinction, of course, can have immense practical significance for an EA applicant to Michigan. As Michigan considers demonstrated interest, it naturally behooves an EA applicant to make that interest known early and often without becoming a pest. If Michigan is your clear-cut first choice, express your firm commitment to attend. If you wish to hedge your bets, demonstrate your keen interest short of making a commitment.

Again, good luck to the OP and to all those seeking admission to the Michigan Class of 2020.

57

I’m wondering why Michigan doesn’t do ED instead of EA. This was discussed in a previous thread, but the only answer I gleaned from it was “because other public universities don’t do ED and Michigan would stick out.” Why’s that necessarily a bad thing?

58

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.iecaonline.com/PDF/IECA_Demonstrated-Interest-Research.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiTz4Kr5OPJAhUxqYMKHaj6AP8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNFdsw1c5OGwScv-26PGnLdCl6M9Tg&sig2=6Ef1zMfBMfV8puTxI-8cbw
According to this article, halslightly more than half of schools considered “demonstrated interest” to be moderate to very important in admission.

59

Probably because it’s counter to the mission of a public university. ED caters to upper income students who do not have to compare financial aid packages and who have the resources and wherewithal to have their act together in time for the ED deadline.

60

ED is not demonstrated interest. It is guaranteed yield. 2 very different things.

Lots of schools admit that interest is important to them. I’m not sure why you think many would not. Even Michigan “considers” it,