Early action--why not? Is there downside?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
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<p>A lot of people on this forum ask whether or not it's a good idea to apply for early action, and the university itself states criteria guidelines for people to decide if they should go for early action or regular admissions.</p>

<p>My understanding is that, for early action, the university will either accept, reject or defer an applicant. Obviously, for people who are accepted early admit, it was a wise decision. </p>

<p>My question is about those apply, but don't get in early action. What risk are they really taking? Seems to me that the university doesn't outright reject that many early action candidates, many more deferrals. Other than the obvious bummer of not getting an acceptance letter before Christmas, are the chances of a deferred early action candidate really affected negatively in any way as far as their chances to be admitted regular decision.</p>

<p>Doesn't seem that way to me; seems like there's really nothing to lose applying early admit for someone who obviously has a shot. Maybe there's something I'm missing?</p>

<p>I'd love to hear some input on this one. My son got in early admit, my daughter has a stronger resume than his was in all ways but test scores. What would it hurt her to apply early? (Besides maybe a little wounded pride if she gets deferred?)</p>

<p>Don't know if it matters, but they are both products of Catholic schools and, as I am an '84 alumna, they are legacies.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for your help! :)</p>

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<p>We all know that I am the one who is most cautious with EA, so keep that in mind. Based on what admissions says, there probably is no downside because you are right in saying that if you are close you should be rejected. However, what I look at is the fact that admissions STRESSES that EA should only be used for those who are the strongest applicants and will tell you if you are a candidate for EA. So, will it hurt you, probably not...but it also scares me that they say unequivocally that only those with extremely strong GPA's and SAT's should use EA. I know how important Notre Dame is to many people, including myself, and the reason I am cautious about it is just because they are so clear about that. I guess what is the worst that can happen, you get on their bad side? Heck, I applied EA when I shouldn't have, and I admit that. </p>

<p>Okay, let me try to wrap this up. Based on what I have seen and what admissions says I don't think that you are going to get hurt by applying EA. However, given how important ND probably is to your daughter, I am apprehensive because I wouldn't want to take any chances you don't have to, you know? The fact that ND's admissions staff makes it so clear who should apply EA makes it seem to me like it could be a chance, even if it is a small, if you aren't one of the people they say should apply EA. That is why I am cautious; I just say why take any chance if you don't have to. Now the counter argument is that there is no risk and there probably isn't. It just makes me nervous, that is all.</p>

<p>I hope I haven't confused you too much; I know I am like those on the other message board that keep telling me different things about GRE scores. I hope you understand why I am a bit nervious but, most likely, it won't make any difference if you apply EA or not. At this point, I just wouldn't just because I am very risk averse but if there is any risk it is probably very minimal. I hope that helps at least a bit, but I am sure it will be refuted :). That is for the best though, you need to see all sides of the argument. Good luck to you!</p>

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<p>And, of course, to counter Mike's opinion, I agree there is <em>no</em> downside to applying EA, and I believe ND Admissions discourages many from applying EA for the extremely practical reason that it would basically pile their workload of what normally takes three months into four weeks (because everybody would then apply EA), which would be impossible unless they added staff, and it would basically move the entire admissions process up several months. Besides ruining Thanksgiving for them all, what would they do all spring?? (Tongue firmly planted in cheek)</p>

<p>If you get rejected EA, you were definitely going to be rejected RA. They say that themselves. And, (and I forget where I found this) statistically you are much better off applying EA.</p>

<p>Your daughter is a legacy, as well. When you say her test scores are lower than your son's, how much lower? Can you give the figures? (Maybe you already did and I just missed it. If so...sorry)</p>

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<p>Docmom, if it makes no difference, why are you asking for her scores :). Just kidding, lol. I am glad to see you on the boards. Tell you know who happy birthday for me.</p>

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<p>TESTS
She's taken the ACT three times. First time, she got a 26. Second time, she got a 29. Third time, she just took, and feels better than she did the first two times, but who knows? My guess is she'll wind up at 30 or 31, but, worst possible scenario, she ruts at 29.</p>

<p>GRADES
Meanwhile, the GPA is 4.0 unweighted, 4.3+ weighted. Class rank is 3rd out of 145. </p>

<p>STRENGTH OF CURRICULUM
Has taken the most challenging curriculum available, including a number of St. Louis U 1-8-1-8 classes taken at the high school, but for which she has received SLU college credit--she'll have 30+ SLU hours by the time she graduates. </p>

<p>ACADEMIC AWARDS
Outstanding Freshman English Student (1 awarded for class of 145)
Outstanding Junior History Student (4 awarded for class of 145)</p>

<p>ATHLETICS
JV soccer 9th, varsity soccer 10th, 11th, 12th<em>. Played competitive club soccer in off-season. (</em>12th applies to next year)</p>

<p>Basketball: Frosh squad 9th, JV 10th; co-captain of JV</p>

<p>Cross country: Varsity 11th, 12th</p>

<p>VOCAL MUSIC
Chamber Choir 9, 10, 11, 12</p>

<p>National anthem vocalist at high school basketball & soccer games (at least 10 per year)</p>

<p>Cantor/songleader in Catholic parish 8, 9, 10, 11, 12</p>

<p>LEADERSHIP
National Honor Society, Secretary-elect (to serve senior year)</p>

<p>Missouri Girls State (in about 2 weeks)</p>

<p>Delegate to Student Legislative Day in Jefferson City, MO</p>

<p>COMMUNITY SERVICE & YOUTH
Volunteer youth soccer coach 9, 10, 11, 12</p>

<p>Vacation bible school song & dance instructor 7, 8, 9</p>

<p>Life guard & swim lesson instructor, summers</p>

<p>PERSONAL
An absolute spit-fire; 5'3" will play one-on-one in soccer as defender against girls twice her size, and she's pushing them away; shies from no challenge; as her basketball coach put it, she "gets it"--("I'm not talking about sports, she gets life"); plans to write an essay that conveys the unique person she is; goes to optional weekly masses at high school because she wants to, and appreciates Catholic faith far more profoundly than I ever did at that age; I know ND--she would thrive there...</p>

<p>She's just not much of a standardized test-taker... I do think, though, that she probably hit at least a 30, but who knows? She says she felt much better coming out this time, but then was afraid talking like that would "jinx it", as if the scores would suddenly evaporate and change because she said something (ah, the difference between an adolescent daughter and an adolescent son :) )</p>

<p>She wants ND, but feels that whatever happens will happen for a reason, and I feel the same... Big brother wants her up there because he knows if there are two of them, we'll send up a car...just don't know who would broker the fights over gas money, if this summer is any indication ;)</p>

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<p>I think, especially with being a legacy, she will be fine and will be accepted either way. Go with what you are most comfortable with is my vote, because overall her resume is very strong. I do laugh a bit at the 29, however, because that is what I got stuck at too! I hope she doesn't stick there but what will be will be, I think her grades and activities will be enough with that score. Good luck!</p>

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<p>I'm convinced, Mike, that the 29 thing is a conspiracy of the American College Testing Corporation. In the state of Missouri, the big automatic state school scholarships kick in at 30, so kids will take the same test 4 and 5 times just to hit the bullseye and get the cash. </p>

<p>Her brother meanwhile, hit a 34 on his second try, without doing any ACT prep whatsoever--motivated mainly because he didn't want to have to take it again. He has always tested that way.</p>

<p>Not that he ever reminds her ;) Unless, of course, they're fighting over who is going to put gas in the shared car before one of them gets stranded in the middle of the road... :)</p>

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<p>By the way, my son says he walked out of both ACT sessions thinking he got a 36.</p>

<p>Doesn't ask for directions, either...</p>

<p>Must be the Y chromosome :)</p>

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<p>I don't know, I am willing to ask for directions, but then again I had a 29. Maybe 29's are just really smart people... I just wish that would correlate with my GRE which is very much like the SAT. My verbal is too weak :(, oh well, we will see what happens.</p>

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<p>If you are willing to ask for direction, irish, then you have all the verbal skills you need...and would rank in the highest percentiles of those in your gender! Seriously, I just don't get the extreme emphasis on standardized testing these days. In what field are you pursuing a graduate degree?</p>

<p>As per the SAT, that's even worse! How is it that those people can literally screw up and even lose scores for thousands of kids, yet none of us get the thrill of rejecting <em>them</em>? ;)</p>

<p>I tested off the charts and am a broke, but happy, artist type. Bill Gates, meanwhile, dropped out of school and is a gazillionaire... </p>

<p>God will make the right thing happen, irish. If there's anything I've learned in 44 years of living, that is it...</p>

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<p>I am studying psychology and hoping to get into a Clinical Psychology PhD program. I agree with you, it is nuts. One of my friends on another message board told me that a lot of programs use the equation (GRE/2) + (GPA*100) must be over 1000 to have a chance. The GRE is out of 1600, so it is worth 800 of the equation. GPA, of course, is out of 4 so it is worth 400. That means that your GRE score is still worth twice as much as your COLLEGE GPA! I just don't get it, I really don't. </p>

<p>I thought that SAT deal was awful, imagine the stress that that put everyone under too (perhaps you were one of them, I hope not). It drives me nuts. I don't think I could work for ETS, the maker of the SAT and GRE...something about it just seems wrong to me. </p>

<p>Then again, I should be thankful. My sister has always struggled in school and recently came home with a 17 on her ACT, which with her grades means that she probably won't get into a 4-year college unless she can move it up. If she had my 29, she would get in (Colorado, where I am from, uses a matrix so we know as much). I hate standardized testing, never have liked it, but I guess it is necessary and I guess I should just be thankful. I just wish I could give her my scores because it would make a huge difference; too much of a difference!</p>

<p>I agree with you that things all work out somehow; heck I am a transfer, how can I not believe that :). I believe your daughter will be fine, she has worked hard and will get what she deserves (in a good way of course). No matter what the odds, it is amazing what you can do with hard work!</p>

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<p>DId your daughter take the SAT? If so how did she score. My daughter just took the ACT and asked me to call and cancel having the scores sent because she was not comfortable. I always thought they were easier than the SAT. How do the scores correlate?WE have the same dilemma. We would like the stress over by Christmas . My daughter is mid range on their stats. She will be going out for their summer experience to see how she feels about it and hopefully speak with admissions. Good luck to your daughter I am sure she will get in.</p>

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<p>Here's the downside as told to me by a ND Admissions official visitng our area a few years ago. ND Admissions staff views early action as for better than average candidates - and they seem to judge this in particular by looking at board scores. If you apply early action and are viewed as less than special and then deferred, you do NOT get considered with the regular decision applicants. Because you have already been reviewed and not accepted, you go into a separate batch. Admissions then looks at all of the regular decision candidates before you and lets a bunch of them in. THEN, with the great majority of spaces in the class taken up by early action admits and regular decision admists, the Admission staff counts how many spaces are left and then combs throguh the deferees to see whom to offer admission to. Because spaces may be scarce at this point and because everyone being considered was good enough to merit a deferral as opposed to a rejection, the competition for acceptance at this point may be tougher than it was in the regular decision period.</p>

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<p>I haven't heard that but I don't doubt it either. Again, if there is a question, I just ask why take the risk? I think this applicant will get in regardless but the best advice I can give is ask admissions what they feel you should do and then do what they recommend. Eli, if you happen to remember which person of admissions told you this and don't mind telling me, please PM me!</p>

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<p>I hadn't heard that. A bit disturbing. I guess my question would be, if all other aspects of the resume are exceptionally strong--not just good--including the type of extracurriculars a Catholic university such as Notre Dame would particularly value, because they are at the heart of the school's faith mission, would they really dump a kid to the bottom of the pile because an ACT is a few points off? By the logic you've espoused, if 1,000 apply early action, and 500 are admitted, number 501 gets buried deep because he or she had the audacity to apply early admit... I don't see the admissions board being that vindictive. Nor do I see that it would make any sense, in the scheme of what they are trying to do, to be that way, as it would not best serve the university.</p>

<p>My sense of admissions is that the university is not seeking to run a test score or GPA contest--lest they wouldn't reject the number of valedictorians or 1600 (old version) SAT's that they do. They are seeking a threshold of ability to handle the work and immerse themselves academically at Notre Dame. They are then seeking people who best fit the mission of the university, that they believe can take the greatest advantage of what is offered there, and are most likely to carry the school's mission and message out into the world for the rest of their lives. Notre Dame is not just a four-year experience; optimally, it lasts a lifetime, even for those who might not set foot on campus or attend an ND Club outing for the next thirty years.</p>

<p>If that is not their mission, it should be. </p>

<p>I honestly believe that the nod given towards legacy is about much more than appeasing the donor base. If such were the case, my son wouldn't have warranted special legacy treatment, because, with three kids in Catholic schools and much time spent in volunteer pursuits that could be spent making more income from which to donate, we've been pretty non-existent in that department. Having been there, though, I understand the mission, the big picture of the mark the university hopes to leave upon its graduates and the world they enter. It's an understanding one can't get from a catalogue, no matter how closely one persuses it. </p>

<p>Twenty-six years ago, in the days before PC's, I typed a very heart-felt essay as part of my application package. Handing it to my high school guidance counselor, she was dismayed that there were abundant typos and strikeovers, and wanted me to do the entire application over again--which, in those days, is what it would have taken. I told her at the time that the university should be judging my heart and my thoughts, not my typing abilities. If they would look at my whole package and disqualify me for typographical errors, it wasn't the kind of place I wanted to attend.</p>

<p>A few months later, I was accepted as a Notre Dame Scholar. Apparently, the admissions department was willing to look past my typos, too. Thus did I attend there. When my son applied early action, his class rank was 5 percentage points below their suggested low. He was in before Christmas. </p>

<p>We'll see how this latest ACT went. We'll know in a week. Quite frankly, if they are willing to deep-six her file because she's a point or two off in an ACT and went early admit, that could well be God's way of saying that maybe St. Louis University was the better path for my daughter. That is a great university as well. Not to mention cheaper and a lot closer to home.</p>

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<p>I don't know, I would rather choose Creighton over SLU, but that may just be because that is what I choose (after I was turned down by ND, I went to Creighton even though SLU offered more money). </p>

<p>Regardless, I would ask admissions about what you should do. I think your daughter will also get in regardless, but your post worried me a bit because it seemed (at least to me) like you were trying to talk yourself into EA. If you haven't yet, you may as well just email admissions and ask them what they think, and they will give you an honest opinion, and then use that in your decision just in case Eli is correct. I just know that they are the most unbiased source.</p>

<p>I don't think that Notre Dame is as crazy over certain numbers as some schools are but to the question (in general) of will a school throw out an application because of a few ACT points, the answer is YES. Colorado uses a matrix system where your GPA and SAT and nothing else determines if you get in. Many top schools have cutoffs where if you don't hit them they will eliminate you. For my graduate schools, if I don't get above a 1250 on my GRE, my application won't be read even though I have a 3.9 at Notre Dame. It is crazy, it stinks, but it does happen. Does it happen at Notre Dame, I sure hope not, but I also wouldn't underestimate a few points on the ACT. They seem insignificant, and hopefully she did better so it won't be an issue, but they really do make a difference. ND has always looked at the whole application and has always really paid attention to the essays, and because of that I think your daughter will be fine. (BTW, my roommate's brother had a 1550 SAT old version and was in the top 2% of his class but was rejected becuase he thought ND was a given and didn't focus on the essay; make sure she has a good essay). I don't think that ND is as score crazy as a lot of schools, but I also do think it is important to know that at a lot of schools a few points on the ACT absolutely can make the difference, unfortunately. You know how I feel about these tests, I hate them, but right now it is the way it is :(. I am sorry.</p>

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<p>Some more info per questions raised above.
1. First, the observation about looking in particular at board scores during early action selection was my own comment based what I heard from what I recall to be a relativley high Admission official at ND last year - in the large group presentation before we took the tour - when my son and I visited there. She seemd to almost throw it out as a rule of thumb. Something like: "Our middle 50% SATS are xyz; if your SATs rank highly compared to this you are probably a good candidate for early action." She also mentioned that, if in doubt, candidates or their parents should feel free to call the Admissions Office and discuss with them if a particular student was a good candidate for early action or not.
2. What I described can seem to warn against trying early action. I should note, however, that, after hearing what I have described in my two posts, we had my son apply early action last fall - based largely on his good board scores and great interest in ND; and he was admitted. I think that applying early action, if it makes sense in other regrds, is a great strategy for applicants. Apply to one or more early actions that you would be happy with. IF you get in, you can then forget about having to look for fallbacks in the regular admissions process. My son applied early action to ND, BC, and Michigan (the last one rolling admissions). He got in all three and will be coming to ND.
3. Lastly, in response to Irish's query, I don't remember the name of the ND Admissions person who explained how early admissions worked and what its downside could be. As I recall him, he was a young (20s/early 30s) African American man visiting Georgetown Prep in the Washington DC area in maybe 2003-2005 and speaking to a larger audience - not just Georgetown Prep people. I hope that helps.</p>

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<p>My biggest reason to want her to go EA is, if there is a chance to get a decision earlier, there is a chance to get a head start on money earlier. Loans, grants, scholarships, pints of blood, pounds of flesh. Realizing that there's a good possibility she might not get in EA, to me it seems worth the risk to take a shot at it, in case she does. Plus, having already had one go through the admissions materials stuff before, it's nice to have it done and in. You can always update the file. I found the admissions office to be quite helpful and encouraging--not sure if it is the legacy thing, or the person I was dealing with. As I recall, the person I dealt with was Dan Saracino...</p>

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<p>Saracino is the head of admissions, if he says go, then GO!!!!</p>

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<p>Didn't talk to Saracino about this one--he was just the guy I dealt with the last time, when my son applied. My hope is that the ACT fairy will come in the middle of the night and deliver a few bonus points, so that none of this will be an issue!</p>