I’m a transfer student at Berkeley with Applied Math as my major. I’m considering whether or not I should double major in Econ or perhaps even change my major to Econ entirely. I’m unsure whether I want to do grad school in pure math or economics, but I’m leaning more towards econ right now.
I’ve heard most undergrad econ courses at Berkeley aren’t very rigorous mathematically, so econ majors are often encouraged to take extra upper division math courses such as math 104 (Real Analysis) to prepare themselves better for grad school. If I were to major in applied math and take econ courses as electives, would I be at an advantage or disadvantage to traditional econ majors? Is my best option to double major in applied math and economics, or am I better off sticking to one major and keeping my GPA high, while using the extra time to prepare for GREs etc. ? Would having a double major make me more competitive as a grad school applicant? What are the benefits to double majoring? Would majoring in Applied Math with a concentration in Economics (5 math courses + 3 econ) instead of double majoring (5 math courses + 10 econ) allow me to keep my options open until I decide what I want to do?
Less important question: which major is more competitive when it comes to grad schools? How about top grad schools, say top 20? What else can I do in the next 2 years to prepare myself?
Any advice from anyone with more experience would be appreciated.
Cal econ major here. Your right in that the econ courses don’t have much math content, but I’ve heard that a lot of people struggle with amount of reading required when combined with the workload of the upper division math. Generally the “mathy” econ folks take a specific track rather than double majoring. (e.g. 101A-B, C103, 104,141)
Considering you can take all of those as a math major (It looks like three of them fit with your econ concentration) then why take the additional upper division requirements unless you want more work? All the advantages of double majoring can be easily surpassed with a good internship IMHO.
As far as grad school, it depends on what you want your grad degree in, but if your looking at pure economics then a mathematics undergrad is probably a better route because all grad level courses in Economics are math based. Thanks to the private schools and their build-a-degree programs, grads schools typically look at classes taken rather than your major.
@SDGoldenBear, thanks for your response.
I feel very comfortable with reading and rigorous math proofs, which I guess is why I’m leaning more towards the math major for undergrad in the first place. I was better than a lot of my friends who transferred before me at math proofs and conceptual problems, so I’m not too worried about the upper division workload. My weak skill is writing, since English isn’t my primary language; are there a lot of writing assignments in upper division econ courses? I had a couple in my lower division micro and macro classes, and had trouble conveying my ideas effectively, although I understood the material very well.
Additionally, the lecture section for Econ 101a, which needs to be completed during my first semester if I do decide to major or double major in econ, is completely full right now with a wait-list of about 15 people. Will I be able to register for the section during phase 2? Any experience with this? Do you know anyone who was unable to declare econ because they were unable to register for the required courses during the first semester?
What exactly are these advantages to double majoring and how would an internship be more effective? How difficult is it to get an internship as a transfer student, with very little upper division coursework?
So do you think these math-heavy econ courses in the applied math cluster will be sufficient to prepare me for grad school in pure economics?
I would go with applied math. If you are a regular econ major, you will have to take those upper division math classes in grad school anyways. You might as well knock it out as an undergrad.
I would not be so concerned about econ vs. Applied math. The key to grad school is research. Assuming you have a good GPA and gre score, all that really matters is research. So once u transfer, I would focus getting involved in research right away. Get published and you’re pretty much solid for grad school.
As for deficiency in econ classes, I honestly think the only classes you really need to understand is microeconomics, macroeconomics, and econometrics. The other classes are nice but not needed.
Also you have to question if you really want to go to grad school? Do you even like research? Do you really want to become a professor? Cause that is what you most likely will do with a with PhD in Economics.
If that is not what you want then I would look into finance, consulting, or actuary. Or take programming classes and go after the jobs that computer science majors go for.
@iTransfer1 yes I’m pretty sure I want to go down the grad school path and become a professor. I don’t yet know if I like “research” because I haven’t had too much experience with it. But most people who know me well tell me that it’s a perfect fit for me. I’m more interested in finding answers to deep questions than solving practical problems. I am looking into the Actuary option though as an alternative in case I eventually decide against grad school.
How hard is it to get research experience as a transfer at cal? Undergrad math students almost never get published or do serious research, so are you talking about econ or do you mean I should do a master’s before I apply to a PhD program?
So you don’t think the 5 extra econ courses I would take as a math/econ double major would be slightly more impressive on my grad school application?
If I’m going to major in econ, I need to make sure I take econ 101a and statistics 134 my first semester (they don’t make exceptions), so it’s kind of a hard decision to make when I don’t have a lot of experience with upper division econ yet. Do you know any additional sources or places I could reach out to other econ majors for advice? People on Berkeley’s econ page on facebook seem kinda unhelpful/unapproachable.
Preparation for PhD study in economics is described here:
https://www.econ.berkeley.edu/undergrad/current/preparing-for-grad-school
https://www.econ.berkeley.edu/grad/admissions/preparation
Either applied math or economics as a major would be ok, if you include the needed economics (101A, 101B, 141; C103, 104, 142 desirable), math (104, 110, etc.) and statistics (134 or 200A, 150) courses. Of course, undergraduate research is important as well.
Note that you can take Economics 101A or 101B in either order.
@ucbalumnus pretty much pointed you to everything you need.
Unfortunately a lot of people are squeezed out of the program because of the class size limits, but the same goes for most capped majors. It’s especially hard for transfer students. Given how full the four classes (100A-B & 101A-B) are right now, I think your best bet is waitlisting Bianchi’s 9AM TTh discussion and hoping for the best. The 100 classes typically don’t have a lot of people dropping and Hawkins who is teaching 100B is a stickler for not adding more students than he has to. I would definitely Phase I Stats 134 though as that will probably be full this semester thanks to Prof. Sly being the best professor you can get for it until Adhikari which won’t be for a long while.
I think taking Econ C103, 104, 141, along with Stats 134 and maybe 150 & 155 will teach you pretty much everything you need to know about Econ regardless of major, but I would definitely seek out Prof. Chris Shannon: https://math.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/chris-shannon. She is THE person to talk to as far as math vs. econ and the paths to getting into a econ grad program.
@SDGoldenBear if I register for the discussion section you mentioned, how do I know I’ll also get into the lecture? I’ve heard people say “once you’re in a discussion, you’re basically in the class.” Is this true? Can you elaborate on how this works?
I enrolled in math 110 and 104 for phase 1. Should I drop 104 to enroll in Stats 134 and re-enroll in 104 during phase 2? Or should I enroll in stats now, try to get Econ 101 during phase 2, and take 104 next semester if Im able to get into Econ this semester?
How important is it that I complete stats 134 and Econ 101 my first semester? If I don’t do this, I lose my opportunity to major in Econ, but still have the opportunity to take those relevant courses you mentioned as an applied math major.
Thanks so much for pointers btw. I’m extremely confused with how the system works as a first semester transfer; community college was so much simpler. Are you an applied math major as well, if you don’t mind me asking?
No problem. I’m an Econ major who thought about doubling in either stats or math. After looking further into it though, I found it unnecessary and will just take some extra math classes.
If your deadset with Econ it’s imperative to add 101 and 134 ASAP, otherwise I’d just sit back and take the opportunities as they come. Bluntly speaking, its highly unlikely to get all the courses you need to declare econ at this point, so it doesn’t make sense to mortgage your established schedule for a high risk chance with the econ prerequisites. Math majors I’ve met all preach taking the quality instructors when they are available as those opportunities are rare. It’s extremely rare to get a good professor in either 104 or 134 so it is just a matter of personal preference. Considering Sly’s course is full, I would probably stay in 104 if I was in your shoes.
The GSIs handle the enrollment and traditionally operate on the concept that students with an established discussion section are easier to add to the lecture than the other way around. It’s much easier to deal with 2-10 crashers in a discussion than the 100+ crashers at the lecture. “Once you’re in a discussion, you’re basically in the class” is a myth, especially when dealing with the intermediate economic theory/analysis courses, but generally a person 3rd on a discussion waitlist and 60th on the lecture waitlist has a better shot than someone who is 20th in the lecture waitlist and 5th on the discussion waitlist.
The exception to this is the course that is fully reserved for CEC codes (which I believe is Econ 100B Section 108 this semester). The low enrollment in that is due to that section being filled solely through class codes reserved specifically for econ pre-majors. Don’t make the mistake of waitlisting that one as you’ll be frozen out well into the adjustment period.
@SDGoldenBear I’m 4th in the discussion waitlist for stats 134 and 22nd in the lecture (the total limit is 180). Do I have a realistic chance of getting in? People have told me that as a rule of thumb, 10% of the waitlist is usually added.
The 104 section I dropped was only half full and I hope will not fill up. When does phase 2 of registration usually start for most people? When should I start checking back to make sure I’m not losing my spot in 104?
Also, is 3 technical courses too heavy a work load for my first semester? People have advised me not to take more than 2 technical classes a semester, especially during my first one when I’m still transitioning. How do people manage to meet the 13 unit requirement with only 2 technical courses if they’re just 4 units? Does everyone just take easy courses they don’t need?
There are still 18 empty seats in the 110 lecture out of a limit of 275. Would I be taking a big risk by dropping it to be put on the waitlist for an Econ course? I’m thinking of doing 101 instead of 100 since I can use it to fulfill part of my applied math requirement. What I don’t understand though is how there are 14 people on the waitlist for 101a when there are 10 empty seats. Is this class also reserved for econ majors? How can you tell the classes that have CEC codes from the regular ones on schedule.berkeley?
I guess my primary concern about getting into 134 and 101 is whether I would really lose anything by not double majoring in Econ. If grad schools really don’t care at all what my undergrad major is (as someone said earlier), and the 5-6 extra econ classes I would take as a double major are insignificant compared to courses like 103, 141, etc. which are included in applied math, then I could probably just leave Econ 101 for a later semester.
Thanks again.
Remember, you can take either 101A or 101B (they are not sequential), so watch for openings in either course.
The “Click here for current enrollment information and course restrictions” links in the schedule may indicate whether some seats in the class are reserved for those with CECs. It is possible that these are given out to incoming transfer students who indicated economics as their intended major, so that they can enroll in 100A, 100B, 101A, or 101B in their first semester. Ask the economics department directly for more information.
As far as “technical” courses, note that the math department recommends students take 110 as their first upper division math course, and says that “104 is a particularly demanding course” (see https://math.berkeley.edu/programs/undergraduate/majoring-mathematics ). Some students do take 104 early and do well, but it is a heavy duty proof-based course, so it is usually best taken by those who have already had some proof techniques in previous math courses (e.g. 55 or equivalent, or other upper division math courses like 110).
Math and economics courses do not have time consuming labs, although math courses with proofs may have high intellectual difficulty. If you like and can handle math including proofs, then a full slate of math and math-heavy economics courses should not be an excessive workload. Some statistics courses do have labs, though 134 does not.
I’ve heard that 10% rule as well, but from found it very inaccurate when dealing with certain prerequisite courses. I believe Stats 134 has a higher than average drop rate (It’s notorious for being one of the hardest undergrad courses on campus) so you have a good chance of getting in.
Phase II begins on July 16: http://registrar.berkeley.edu/telebears_calendar.html. Generally though a lot of the major shifting happens the week before phase II.
I definitely think having three technical classes is a huge load for any semester…especially if one of them is Stats 134. Have you considered getting your American cultures requirement done during your first semester? The econ majors have some easier upper division electives that we try to mix in with the more difficult courses. I can only assume math has some similar courses? I heard Math 128A is fairly easy.
I don’t know too much about 110, but looking at Telebearsoracle points to it filling up in the fall and usually having open spots in the spring. It seems rather risky to drop it. Also you are correct, the 10 open seats are saved for Econ premajors. Since they are essentially guaranteed a spot in the class most of them use phase I to add different courses and wait till phase II to add with their CECs. All sections have a predetermined number of spots saved for pre-majors, but the department usually has one section that is primarily by CECs for premajors that don’t go / can’t go to CalSO. I think it’s 100B-108 this semester from looking at the numbers, but I’m not completely sure.
As far as deciding to the double major or not, it’s really personal preference. Prof. Shannon and/or your current major adviser(Mr. Brown?) can help A LOT. Talking to them helped me make my decision.
@SDGoldenBear,
Is Stats 134 harder than Math 104? When will I be able to view which textbooks are being used for 104? Some instructors use Ross and others use Rudin. I prefer to enroll in a section that uses Ross, but when I click “view books” under any of the courses on schedule.berkeley I get a message saying “no books found.”
A lot of people have suggested I take my American Cultures requirement my first semester but I generally struggle more with humanities courses than I do in math, because my writing skills are very bad. Is there an American cultures course that doesn’t require a lot of writing?
Book lists can be found at:
http://www.bkstr.com/studentstoreberkeleystore/shop/textbooks-and-course-materials
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/offerings/fall-2015
Looks like from the above that all 6 sections of 104 use the Ross book, though one also lists the Pugh book and Rudin book as recommended reading. The H104 class uses the Pugh book (Pugh is the instructor of the course).
For AC courses, why not just pick one whose topics seem interesting to you? The fall 2015 list is at http://osoc.berkeley.edu/OSOC/osoc?p_term=FL&x=58&p_classif=–+Choose+a+Course+Classification±-&p_deptname=–+Choose+a+Department+Name±-&p_presuf=AC&y=8 (however, there may be a few other courses that satisfy the requirement that do not have the AC suffix, notably History 7A or 7B).
@ucbalumnus when I look up the textbook for math 104, lecture 3 on website you linked, it says that lecture 3 is being taught by Alexander Givental, whereas schedule.berkeley says it’s being taught by Klass. Which is correct?
The math department listing at https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/offerings/fall-2015 has Klass teaching two sections of 104 and Givental teaching 53 and H110. You can ask the math department directly to be sure.
@ucbalumnus small question: on telebears it says my position for stat 134 is 22 and the status says “pending” but the position for the discussion section is blank as well as the status. Does this mean I got into the discussion section or is it just that waitlists for discussion sections aren’t ordered? The schedule says there are 4 people waiting for this particular discussion.
I think it is premature to be planning on a PhD in econ when you haven’t taken econ 101 yet. But getting through principles of micro and macro, intermediate micro and macro, and econometrics would be a great addition to a math major.