Econ vs Engineering

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>I'm attending UCLA in the fall and I was accepted under pre BizEcon. Now, however, I'm thinking about turning towards chemE. I do plan in the future to obtain an MBA and I know that whether or not I go under the path of either BizEcon or chemE I can apply to a business school. Also as a side note, if I do BizEcon at UCLA I do plan to minor in chemistry or double major in biochemistry because I may or may not in the end want to have a career in pre-med and also because I feel it showcases I can handle a heavy courseload/stress like an engineer. People have told me that there's no point in double majoring or minoring because I should spend time looking for internships instead. So here are my following questions...
- Does it really make no difference to business schools whether I do BizEcon or chemE?
- What has a higher starting salary between the two?...what about over the course of 5 years?
- Is there a point in minoring/double majoring?
- What major can I get more out of? ( I hear BizEcon at UCLA people don't get much out of meaning its not as practical )
- How long do I have to work before I apply for an business school?
- What do people do in between the time they apply for business school and after they graduate from college?
- What form of internships will look good on my resume?</p>

<p>Thanks for reading through all this.</p>

2

<ul>
<li>Does it really make no difference to business schools whether I do BizEcon or chemE?</li>
</ul>

<p>It's more important that you get a high GPA regardless of your major. The BizEcon will help you land a better business-related job/internship, perhaps. But the major won't matter to the business school admissions committees.</p>

<ul>
<li>What has a higher starting salary between the two?...what about over the course of 5 years?</li>
</ul>

<p>ChemE majors have higher starting salaries, in general. That's because they become engineers after graduation and engineering careers have higher starting salaries than most entry-level business careers. But if you get an MBA from a top-tier business school, your salary may be much higher after five years. The best bet is to not worry about your starting salary or eventual salary, and approach it from a career standpoint. Because if you're doing what you're best at/happiest at, you are much more likely to be successful and higher paid.</p>

<ul>
<li>Is there a point in minoring/double majoring?</li>
</ul>

<p>Only if it makes you happier and get more out of your college experience.</p>

<ul>
<li>What major can I get more out of? ( I hear BizEcon at UCLA people don't get much out of meaning its not as practical )</li>
</ul>

<p>It depends what you're looking for. ChemE may very well be a more rigorous, practical education with more math courses, etc., and may therefore be more rewarding. But business can be rewarding too and you may have more free time to explore your other interests if those classes are easier.</p>

<ul>
<li>How long do I have to work before I apply for an business school?</li>
</ul>

<p>Generally people work for 3-5 years after college before applying to business school.</p>

<ul>
<li>What do people do in between the time they apply for business school and after they graduate from college?</li>
</ul>

<p>Usually they work. Sometimes they take a year or two to pursue community service projects as well, or to travel.</p>

<ul>
<li>What form of internships will look good on my resume?</li>
</ul>

<p>Any financial or business related internship will be helpful. You might want to look at investment, accounting or financial advisory firms in addition to banks.</p>

3

<p>bump any other suggestions?</p>

4

<p>Yeah, I'm in the same situation as abc123def. I was accepted under pre-BizEcon at UCLA but I am thinking about trying to switch to ChemE. Here's the link to another thread that goes more in depth into this:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=88178%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=88178&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

5

<p>
[quote]
Does it really make no difference to business schools whether I do BizEcon or chemE?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The major itself matters little. What matters is the kind of work experience you will get after graduation, and that can and is affected by the kind of major you get, especially if it's an engineering major, because (with the notable exception of software), only engineering students can get hired as engineers. And working as an engineer is an extremely common path to B-school. </p>

<p>
[quote]
What has a higher starting salary between the two?...what about over the course of 5 years

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That depends profoundly on the kind of job you will get afterwards. Like I've always said, if all you care about is money, then you should go into investment banking or some other career in high finance. Those guys, on average, make more money than any engineer, or anybody else. However, keep in mind that they're also working harder than anybody else. 90 hour work weeks are typical, and bad weeks can easily run into well above 110 hours. Engineering, on the other hand, can be seen as a way to make a solid middle-class income while still having a life. Bankers make a lot of money but have no lives. You should think carefully about this. Most people who enter banking shortly quit because they can't handle the lack of a life. </p>

<p>Also keep in mind that any major can get you into banking. I've seen people with English degrees get banking offers. So it's not matter of 'if you choose ChemE, you're shutting the door on banking'. Hardly so. Plenty of ChemE's go to banking. </p>

<p>
[quote]
How long do I have to work before I apply for an business school?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In theory, you don't have to work at all. Some (rare) people manage to get into top B-schools right out of undergrad. However, these are extremely rare birds. B-schools place an emphasis on proven work experience and leadership abilities, which means that only the truly exceptional will get in with no work experience. And by that, I don't just mean top grades and top test scores (which are only a minor admission factor), but rather somebody who displayed extraordinarily leadership while in undergrad - like starting and running his own successful business or leading an important social movement, while in college. That sort of thing. </p>

<p>
[quote]
What form of internships will look good on my resume?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would argue that any sort of internship that lets you get a good job after undergrad will be a good one. The truth is, MBA programs are going to care very little about the internships you had when you were an undergrad student, because they aren't "real" jobs. You should therefore see it not as a way to impress B-schools, but rather as a way for you to secure the job you want after you finish your undergrad. </p>

<p>I would also caution that if you're just an incoming freshman, then it's far too early to be thinking about an MBA anyway. The decision to get an MBA is not 'automatic'. Plenty of highly successful businesspeople do not have MBA's and don't need them. Jack Welch, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Andy Grove, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell - none of these people have MBA's, yet they are all extremely successful. I think the real goal should be to become successful, however you choose to define success, and depending on your career path, you may or may not require an MBA.</p>

6

<p>I want to eventually start my own business. It seems that the only career I hear about in business is i-banking. It's not that money is the only importance to me. It's just that when I look at my major of BizEcon and my friends majors like double E at Berk and the pre-med route taken by many I feel doing so little compared to them. I'm just confused as to what to go into in the future. The only reason I'm asking so much is just I don't want to be making little compared to others when I get out as an undergrad. I really would like to go from undergrad straight to business school but I know that is extremely rare. Can you tell me what companies are impressive to work/intern for then?</p>

7

<p>I just feel like if I end up doing BizEcon I won't necessairly get as much out of it than if I had done chemE. Is that true? Also, I feel at an disadvantage later on because I feel chemE would teach things ... technology wise that would be useful in the future. Is that true too?</p>

8

<p>If it makes you feel better, you ought to know that many if not the majority of people who start out in engineering will never actually graduate with an engineering degree. Many of them switch out of engineering because they find they don't like it or they find it too hard. Some of them will flunk out of school completely because of bad engineering grades (happened to several people I know). And even of those engineers who make it all the way to graduation, plenty of them will leave the field of engineering by taking non-engineering jobs, like banking or consulting. And of those who try the premed route, many will not go through with it, because they find it too hard or they find they don't really want to be doctors. Even of those who make it through, take the MCAT, and then apply to med-school, about half of them nationwide will get rejected by every med-school they apply to.</p>

<p>About the notion of making little compared to others, yeah, I understand, you want to be competitive. It's human to be competitive. But you have to understand that in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter if you're making less than other people, as long as you are doing what you want to do. You shouldn't run your life with the goal of making more money than other people. Unless you're Bill Gates, there is ALWAYS going to be somebody that has more money than you do. </p>

<p>If you want to start your own business, then you should just start it. You don't need an MBA to start it, and often times, you don't even need a bachelor's degree. I'm not telling you to drop out of college, but I will say that perhaps you can try to start it in your spare time. Why not? Michael Dell started his company out of his college dorm room and look at him now. </p>

<p>The reason why you hear about Ibanking so much is simple - it's the money. People go into banking for the money, simple as that. It's the one career where you can honestly say that if all you want is money, that's the career path you should go to. You can't really say that about medicine or law or anything else, but you can say it about banking. </p>

<p>However, the truth is, most bankers wash out quickly because the lifestyle is too hard or they're not particularly good at it. Banking is a brutal up-or-out career path where if you're either a star who is advancing up the chain, or you're going to leave the company. There is no middle ground. Not many people actually make it to the higher ranks. Still, it's the hope that keeps attracting people. It's the same reason why hordes of people go to Hollywood to try to become movie stars, despite the fact that only a tiny handful of them will ever be successful, and most of them will end up waiting tables and parking cars. It's the hope that keeps the dream alive. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, I would say that if money is what you want, and if you don't mind working like a dog, then go to banking. You might be one of those stars and make hundreds of millions. Even if not, you will still be paid quite well and you will get valuable experience that you can use later in your life. You will work like an absolute dog, however.</p>

<p>You ask about what companies are impressive to work for, and obviously the big prestigious banks are. So are the major consulting companies like McKinsey. McKinsey has been the #1 most desired employer of new MBA graduates for several years straight now, even more so that Goldman Sachs (almost every year, McKinsey and Goldman Sachs are the top 2). And of course there are those highly respected companies like Microsoft, General Electric, Intel, Dell, Cisco, P&G, and those sorts of icons of business. Then of course there are the "supercool" companies like Google, Yahoo, Apple, MTV, etc. Google has now become such a 'cool' company to work for that it's even starting to draw people who might have ended up at a consulting company or a bank. Of course what will be cool when you graduate will be different from what is cool now, so you will just have to wait and see. </p>

<p>However, the point is, just because we talk about banking a lot here doesn't mean that banking is the only path you can take. Honestly, a lot of people who think they want to go to banking will shirk when they realize just how hard it is to work 90 hours a week, every week. I know people who got bigtime banking offers but turned them down to do something that was less demanding of their time like consulting, which is still time-consuming, but not like banking. Furthermore, a lot of people will go to banking and find the work uninteresting so they will quit.</p>

9

<p>Off topic...but you mentioned Michael Dell. My dad used to work with a guy whose son was friends with Michael Dell. Dell asked the son to work with him on his new business making computers, but his parents told him he should stay in school. He listened to his parents. He doesn't like to talk about it.</p>

10

<p>Great post, sakky</p>

11

<p>Thanks sakky. I'm really interested in business because I know in the future that is what I will definitly see myself doing. It's just bizecon at UCLA is impressive but there's many times I wonder if it was worth turning down Berk's admission. My high school was quite competitive and I know that the atmosphere at bizecon will be more lax and I guess what dissapoints me is that UCLA programs often tends to be overlooked because it isn't a business program and it isn't what many consider a top econ school.<br>
I'm just wondering what could I do to let myself have the same opportunities when I graduate as many of the Haas/Marshall kids will have. The only reason I would consider switching my major to chemE is because I feel it's more rigorous and it's something I could get more out of...although I'm not neccesarily sure that is true. You say that i-banking is extremely rigorous but in the end it does have a certain appeal on one's resume does it not? I know that i-bankers generally only work two years and I'm not sure how that goes...can they leave before 2 years?</p>

12

<p>Oh you mentioned earlier sakky that engineers only are hired for engineering jobs but this one fellow from Berkeley told me he was hired for software engineering with a economics degree...why is that?
Also just for my own curiosity what college do you attend sakky... and for what major?</p>

13

<p>Oh ok sorry for prying.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
Oh you mentioned earlier sakky that engineers only are hired for engineering jobs but this one fellow from Berkeley told me he was hired for software engineering with a economics degree...why is that?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, it wasn't econ, it was English. The guy had an English degree but got a job as a software engineer.</p>

<p>So you ask why is that? Well, the answer is simple. The fact is, for the most part, software industry doesn't really care that much about your formal education, and never has. The only thing they care about is whether you can do the job or not. This guy may have graduated with an English degree, but he was very good at writing Java software. That's what he did in his spare time to make money. By the time he graduated, his Java skills were good enough to get him a software job. In fact, I would argue that his Java skills were probably better than the average Berkeley CS graduate. </p>

<p>{So now you may ask if he was such a good Java developer, why didn't he just major in CS. The answer is simple - he didn't get interested in learning how to write software until the end of his freshman year, and by that time, he had already completed a lot of the requirements for the English major, and he didn't want to have to spend another year at Berkeley doing all the CS freshman coursework.}</p>

<p>Incidentally, if you ever enter the computer industry, you will find a LOT of people who don't have computer science/engineering degrees, and you find some people who don't have any degree at all. Ever wonder why so many super-successful college dropouts like Bill Gates, Michael Dell, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Paul Allen, and the like are all 'coincidentally' in the computer industry? The fact is, the computer industry is one of the few industries where you really can succeed without the "proper" education credentials. All that matters are your skills. A guy with good skills but a bad (or even no) formal education is going to go a lot farther in the computer industry than a guy with the formal education but bad skills. The fact is, nobody really cares about what education you have, the only thing they care about is what you know how to do. </p>

<p>{Incidentally, I believe this is true throughout economic history. The computer industry is relatively new. Whenever any new industry develops, the people who tend to succeed are those people who may not have strong formal educational backgrounds and pedigrees, but who have pluck and determination. These are the people who couldn't make it in the established industries because they didn't have the formal background, so instead they try their luck in a new industry where the hierarchies and formal requirements are not well established. This happened during the beginning of Hollywood where few of the early movie moguls and director/producers had strong formal educations. It happened during the Industrial boom of the late 1800's when few of the new industrialists had strong formal educations. The fact is, a relatively new industry will not have many of the formal "rules" that established industries do, which means that highly entrepreneurial and plucky people can find great success in new industries that they would not have found in established industries.}</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm just wondering what could I do to let myself have the same opportunities when I graduate as many of the Haas/Marshall kids will have.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Networking all the time. Developing your social skills and your public speaking skills (perhaps the most underrated skill in the world). </p>

<p>
[quote]
You say that i-banking is extremely rigorous but in the end it does have a certain appeal on one's resume does it not? I know that i-bankers generally only work two years and I'm not sure how that goes...can they leave before 2 years

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, Ibanking looks prestigious on the resume. No doubt about that. You just have to weigh what you're giving up. You really are giving up your life for those years. </p>

<p>Obviously you can leave before 2 years. Nobody can force you to stay. However, a standard stint is 2 years long, meaning that after 2 years, most people are expected to leave. A minority will be invited to stay for a third year, and an even smaller minority could be promoted to the associate level directly. But don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. Most people won't get that. And the truth is, most people wouldn't want it anyway. Most people find out that Ibanking is not for them and so they happily leave after that 2-year stint. And in fact, plenty of people leave even before the 2-year stint, because they find out quickly that that lifestyle is not for them. </p>

<p>The way I see it is, there is no harm in trying it out. What's the worst that can happen? You find out that you don't like it, so you quit. So what? </p>

<p>Of course, even better would be for you to know whether you would like it or not before you graduate. And that can be accomplished through a summer internship at a bank. Of course, those are not easy to get. What I would say is that you shouldn't be greedy. Even if you have to do it for free, you might consider doing it. The real goal is not to make money (although that would be nice) but to find out whether that lifestyle is for you or not. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Also just for my own curiosity what college do you attend sakky... and for what major?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't answer these kinds of questions publicly. If you really want to know, my email and PM are open.</p>

15

<p>I mean if I try out i-banking but the standard is 2 years would it look bad to quit after a year... mainly for the purpose of being able to put it on my resume?</p>

16

<p>Well, obviously it doesn't look as good as if you worked the full 2-year stint. </p>

<p>However, honestly, if you really think that a short stint would make you look bad, then I would simply omit it entirely from the resume. Remember that the resume is a marketing tool, nothing more, nothing less. This may sound bad, but the fact is that while you shouldn't lie one the resume, you don't have to tell the whole truth either. Think about TV advertising - are they really telling you the whole truth about the product they're selling? </p>

<p>It's the same thing I tell people who are scared that getting a graduate degree will make them overqualified for certain jobs. If that's a real concern, then simply omit your graduate degree from your resume.</p>