Economics Ph.Ds

Graduate School
21

<p>Ghost,</p>

<p>If you were talking specifically about employment the moment you get out of graduate school, I agree with you. If you graduate from Chicago or Harvard alot of opportunities will immediately open themselves up to you. However, two or three years down the road you won't be able to relly solely on your graduate degree to progress in your career. Its the same thing with business degrees. Getting an MBA at Wharton or Kellogg will get your foot in the door at alot of places, but once that foot is in the door, you have to make something of the opportunity.</p>

22

<p>Nobody is disputing the fact that graduating from a high profile department will help. But it isn't nonsense to say that research is the most important part of your profile if you are planning to apply for positions at research universities, where you will be paid to conduct economic research, and the excellence or mediocrity of your career will be determined primarily by your research</p>

<p>Exactly, nobody is disuputing that. However, it becomes a much harder hill to climb coming out of a school even ranked 50. But this should be obvious, no? Coming out of a school ranked there abouts, you are much more likely to place lower, and therefore it you have to jump much, much higher to land a reputable department. If you look at the CV's of profs at, say, the top 50 schools, you're not going to find a significant portion of profs coming from schools outside of the top 15-20 schools in their field. Sure, if you're Hugo Sonnenschein, then you're set. Otherwise, you're in for a rough road. </p>

<p>Look, there's a reason that we fight for top schools, and it ain't because we wan't a fancy name on our CV.</p>

23

<p>Fine, then you agree with me. Pedigree can definitely help, but ultimately the most important thing is your research.</p>

24

<p>hey all. quick question.
I graduated from a top-20 school with a 3.6 in poli sci, and will start my master's in IR at either columbia or johns hopkins this fall. Given that I did not major in econ in undergrad, do i have any chance of getting into a top-10 econ PHD program, given stellar grades in econ courses at my master's program?
Oh, and I got a 800 on the GRE math (710 Verbal, 6 writing).</p>

25

<p>A brutally honest answer:</p>

<p>The short answer is no.</p>

<p>The econ courses in an IR masters program will be designed for people who have very limited knowledge of economics and math. (pretty much just calculus, micro, macro, and MAYBE a tiny bit of linear algebra) Basically, you will be doing undergrad level economics as part of an IR masters program. Which is fine for IR majors, but not fine for trying to get into an econ ph.d program, much less a top 10- no, top 100 one. Even if you get stellar grades in those econ courses, it won't really matter.</p>

<p>The long answer is highly unlikely, but still slightly possible.</p>

<p>If you go to a top ECON masters program such as the one at the london school of economics, or at UBC or U of T in Canada, get top grades, get significant research experience during those two years (because it will take you at least two years at LSE if you don't have undergrad economics, possibly three years in Canada if you count the qualifying year that you would likely have to do) get high grades in graduate level math, and secure three glowing letters of recommendation from econ or math professors, then you've got a shot at a good econ program. However, gaining admission to those masters programs will require more math than you have likely done in polisci. (differential equations, linear algebra, at a bare minimum, and preferably real analysis) So you'll have to do that. The 800 quant score is nice to have, but that's pretty much a checkmark to ensure you know high school math.</p>

26

<p>Agreed. No chance at all. Sorry.</p>

<p>If you're serious, pick up math courses while you're doing your masters. Namely Calc 1-3, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, Real Analysis, and a serious statistics course. Take any other serious mathematics courses that you can. Talk to your econ profs while there and let them know that you're interested in doing graduate work in econ. If you set your sights a bit lower, you may be able to get into a program ranked 25-50, contingent on good grades (3.8+) in those math courses.</p>

27

<p>Man, I had no idea things were THIS competitive (although I certainly didn't think it was easy). I am at Penn right now and my grades are pretty good, and I'm pursuing a math and econ double major with the intention of going to graduate school eventually if not immediately after undergrad. I'd be doing an honors thesis my senior year with some research under my belt, but what else can I do in the next year? Given that I will probably graduate with a 3.75 or whatever and maybe 3.8+ in math and econ? </p>

<p>It's difficult to get to know professors here although I am trying (should get easier in my future classes, the more advanced the smaller). . .econ is treated by lots of people simply as a means to get to a certain career path, and the classes are often very silent as a result of this. Any econ/math courses I should go out of my way to take? I'm really interested in taking econometrics and maybe a Macro-stability and growth policy class, maybe a solid calculus based probability course, and an algebra sequence. Any tips?</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
hey all. quick question.
I graduated from a top-20 school with a 3.6 in poli sci, and will start my master's in IR at either columbia or johns hopkins this fall. Given that I did not major in econ in undergrad, do i have any chance of getting into a top-10 econ PHD program, given stellar grades in econ courses at my master's program?
Oh, and I got a 800 on the GRE math (710 Verbal, 6 writing).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Man, I had no idea things were THIS competitive (although I certainly didn't think it was easy). I am at Penn right now and my grades are pretty good, and I'm pursuing a math and econ double major with the intention of going to graduate school eventually if not immediately after undergrad. I'd be doing an honors thesis my senior year with some research under my belt, but what else can I do in the next year? Given that I will probably graduate with a 3.75 or whatever and maybe 3.8+ in math and econ? </p>

<p>It's difficult to get to know professors here although I am trying (should get easier in my future classes, the more advanced the smaller). . .econ is treated by lots of people simply as a means to get to a certain career path, and the classes are often very silent as a result of this. Any econ/math courses I should go out of my way to take? I'm really interested in taking econometrics and maybe a Macro-stability and growth policy class, maybe a solid calculus based probability course, and an algebra sequence. Any tips?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My question is, why exactly do you guys feel that you need to get a PhD in Econ anyway? There are plenty of other programs you can go to - i.e. PhD programs in business or policy that are probably more suited for you and that, frankly, will probably provide you with better placement.</p>

29

<p>Sakky,</p>

<p>I would guess that the primary reason most of the posters on here would want to get an Econ PhD is because they are in their twenties and unaware of exactly what it entails and what it affords in terms of job opportunities after graduation. I get the feeling that alot of folks on CC think the only way of landing a good job is to do a PhD in the hardest/most competitive field they can get into.</p>

<p>Of course, many posters on here who are interested in Econ PhD's may know exactly what they are in for but still give it a shot, which I applaud fully.</p>

30

<p>Neobez, I'd say you are in pretty decent shape so far. But:</p>

<p>You said you were <em>thinking</em> of taking econometrics. Do you mean to say that Penn - a supposedly reputable school - does not even require one course in econometrics in order to graduate with a degree in economics?</p>

<p>Also, you said you were <em>thinking</em> of taking a calculus based stats course. Is this not required either? What is the extent of your statistics background?</p>

<p>Either way, you should go out of your way to take real analysis. You should also go out of your way to get a top grade in that class. If you can do that, it will certainly help your application. The math double major already puts you in good stead; combine that with an A or A+ in real analysis and 3.7-3.8 gpa and you've got the makings of a strong application. </p>

<p>Also, when I say research experience, your thesis doesn't really count. Everyone does that. Besides, it won't be done before christmas, which is not soon enough for grad school admissions. Research experience would be working or volunteering under a prof as a research assistant for a while, preferably on a project that will be published. It's a great way to get to know a professor on a first-name basis, learn more about how academia actually works, and if you do a good job you should be able to get a distinctive letter of recommendation out of it. This is especially important if your classes are large, because otherwise you are just another annoying undergraduate.</p>

31

<p>Also, when I say research experience, your thesis doesn't really count. Everyone does that.</p>

<p>mmmm....that's not true. not only do very few in my program...I'd question if any, have an honors thesis, the "not counting" part is fairly wrong too. It acts as two things. First, it shows Adcoms that one is interested in doing economic research. Secondly, and perhaps most inportantly, it allows you to demonstrate your research potential to your undergrad profs - the very same that will be writing letters for you.</p>

32

<p>will probably provide you with better placement.</p>

<p>That seems to be somewhat questionable. While perhaps a PhD in Finance would be the best route in terms of placement...it is not clear that such a route is any easier with regards to entrance or completion. Both are highly competitive fields, and both sets of programs draw upon the same set of qualified candidates (though not the same set of interested candidates). Moreover, as PhD's in economics place in B-Schools, but seemingly, or in perhaps very few cases, not vice versa, it would seem that those in Econ programs face very few constraints. I doubt seriously that PhD's in Business enjoy a significantly more favorable placement situation.</p>

33

<p>Okay, I guess I assumed that at a school like UPenn, a majority of people would be doing an honours thesis. At my school the thesis is a requirement for graduation with a degree in economics. Still, I think the students who would be considering good ph.d programs would be much more likely to do the thesis as part of their undergraduate program. So I suppose it might count in your favour if you have a significant portion of it done by November of your final year, but there is certainly a lot more you could do in terms of getting research experience if you are trying to stand out from the masses of applicants to good econ Ph.D programs.</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
That seems to be somewhat questionable. While perhaps a PhD in Finance would be the best route in terms of placement...it is not clear that such a route is any easier with regards to entrance or completion. Both are highly competitive fields, and both sets of programs draw upon the same set of qualified candidates (though not the same set of interested candidates). Moreover, as PhD's in economics place in B-Schools, but seemingly, or in perhaps very few cases, not vice versa, it would seem that those in Econ programs face very few constraints. I doubt seriously that PhD's in Business enjoy a significantly more favorable placement situation

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm afraid you're wrong, for several reasons.</p>

<ul>
<li>Business schools are currently one of the few areas of academia that are actually growing, especially internationally. That's because of the continuing popularity of the MBA, especially in foreign countries. For example, just in the last few decades, Oxford and Cambridge have started MBA programs, as have numerous schools in India and China, and they need people to staff the faculty. Asia in particular is highly interested in developing its human capital to foster economic growth, not economic theory. In contrast, when was the last time a new major economics department was opened?</li>
</ul>

<p>For example, I know a number of Chinese business PhD students who are all planning to go back to China to teach at the slew of new Chinese business schools that are being opened. Similarly, I know a bunch of Indian students who are planning to go back to India. Sure, if you can only speak English, you may not be able to compete for a position in China (although you will still be able to compete for a position in India). But even so, the tidal wave of new Chinese business schools that are being opened still helps you indirectly because it means that you will face less competition from Chinese doctoral students. </p>

<ul>
<li>It is true that some economists will take jobs in business schools. But I think you greatly discount the ability of business faculty to take jobs in non-business faculty. As a case in point, consider the placement of the doctoral students at Harvard Business School - and notice that while obviously most of them placed at business schools, a significant chunk placed in other academic departments, i.e. sociology, psychology, education, policy, and so forth. The truth of the matter is that business academia is by nature highly interdisciplinary, which means that placement can and does occur across a wide range of disciplines. Business academia is at least as broadly based as economics is, and almost certainly more so.</li>
</ul>

<p><a href="http://www.hbs.edu/doctoral/placement/recent.html#gm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hbs.edu/doctoral/placement/recent.html#gm&lt;/a> </p>

<ul>
<li>A business doctorate is * tailor-made * for an industry job, especially one in consulting or (if you're talking about a PhD in finance/accounting), in Ibanking/hedge funds. It is precisely for this reason that I consider a business PhD arguably the * safest * PhD to get, because if worst comes to worst, and you can't find an academic position at all, you can just take a quite nice job in industry.<br></li>
</ul>

<p>That's an inherent safety valve of business academia. It means that not everybody feels that they need to get an academic position. So when a position opens up, you don't have rampaging hordes of applicants trying to get it the way you do in other disciplines. In fact, plenty of business doctoral students expressly do not want an academic position at all and are gunning primarily for an industry job. What that means is that the competition for positions is greatly reduced. </p>

<p>Obviously getting placed at a top business school is still quite difficult. But it's not that hard to get placed at a no-name business school, especially if you plan to do so in a foreign country. And if you can't or don't want to do that, fine, then just take an industry job. </p>

<p>Hence, overall, I would argue that the placement situation business PhD students is VASTLY superior to that of econ PhD students. Business academia, unlike economics, is a growing field. Few schools exist today that want an economics department that don't already have one. And no new standalone economics schools are being built. But business schools are being built out at a rapid pace.</p>

35

<p>Asia in particular is highly interested in developing its human capital to foster economic growth, not economic theory.</p>

<p>Ummm...growth theory is a subset macroeconomic theory. </p>

<p>And yes, Business schools are increasing, but as pointed out, economists place at these schools too. Note that Harvard has a fair share of econ PhDs.</p>

<p>For example, I know a number of Chinese business PhD students who are all planning to go back to China to teach at the slew of new Chinese business schools that are being opened. Similarly, I know a bunch of Indian students who are planning to go back to India.</p>

<p>And I know students from Japan, Korea, Singapore, China, etc. studying economics that are all planning to go back to their respective countries. What's your point?</p>

<p>*But I think you greatly discount the ability of business faculty to take jobs in non-business faculty. *</p>

<p>No, its that I don't discount the ability of econ PhD's to do the same. The difference may be that an economist might be more likely to throw him/herself into oncoming traffic than to join a Sociology dept. Yes, three out of the nearly 100 PhD students from HBS have placed in such depts. Whoopty doo. Health, education, poverty, etc. are all issues that economists do research on. </p>

<p>Let us, since we looked at HBS, take a look at Harvards econ PhD placements:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.economics.harvard.edu/graduate/placement/Placement_2004_2005.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.economics.harvard.edu/graduate/placement/Placement_2004_2005.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.economics.harvard.edu/graduate/placement/Placement_2005_2006.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.economics.harvard.edu/graduate/placement/Placement_2005_2006.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Sloan, Wharton, HBS, Chicago GSB, Stanford GSB, - and you'll not various jobs in industry and other depts...</p>

<p>*A business doctorate is tailor-made for an industry job, ...you can just take a quite nice job in industry. *</p>

<p>And you can always take a nice industry job with an econ PhD too. Hedge funds? Yep. Finance? Yep. NGO's? Yep. Consultants? Yep.</p>

<p>What that means is that the competition for positions is greatly reduced.</p>

<p>Which is why you see plenty of placements by econ PhD's into business schools. </p>

<p>Hence, overall, I would argue that the placement situation business PhD students is VASTLY superior to that of econ PhD students.</p>

<p>You may argue that, but you've certainly not demonstrated it.</p>

<p>And no new standalone economics schools are being built. But business schools are being built out at a rapid pace.</p>

<p>Sounds good for all of the Econ PhD's...taking positions that the Business PhD's dont want. lol</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
Ummm...growth theory is a subset macroeconomic theory.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uhh, you know what I'm talking about. Those countries are more interested in building their economies than in figuring out new theory. In other words, they need more entrepreneurs and business managers, not economists. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And I know students from Japan, Korea, Singapore, China, etc. studying economics that are all planning to go back to their respective countries. What's your point?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My point is that there is more GROWTH of business positions in Asia than there are growth of economics positions </p>

<p>
[quote]
No, its that I don't discount the ability of econ PhD's to do the same. The difference may be that an economist might be more likely to throw him/herself into oncoming traffic than to join a Sociology dept. Yes, three out of the nearly 100 PhD students from HBS have placed in such depts. Whoopty doo. Health, education, poverty, etc. are all issues that economists do research on.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Who cares? The point is, a business PhD is far more likely to be able to step into an industry business role than will an econ PhD. What that means is that the competitition for remaining business academic positions is lessened. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Let us, since we looked at HBS, take a look at Harvards econ PhD placements:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.economics.harvard.edu/gra..._2004_2005.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.economics.harvard.edu/gra..._2004_2005.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.economics.harvard.edu/gra..._2005_2006.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.economics.harvard.edu/gra..._2005_2006.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Sloan, Wharton, HBS, Chicago GSB, Stanford GSB, - and you'll not various jobs in industry and other depts...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nobody is denying that economists are completely constrained. However, I think even most economics PhD students will agree that business is more applied. Heck, that is in fact the ROLE of business PhD programs. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And you can always take a nice industry job with an econ PhD too. Hedge funds? Yep. Finance? Yep. NGO's? Yep. Consultants? Yep.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And business PhD's is MORE SO. That's the point. </p>

<p>Besides, let me put it to you this way. If economics and business Phd programs were exactly the same in focus and outcome, then why even have 2 different programs? The fact that the 2 are disparate programs must mean that there are some differences. </p>

<p>
[quote]
You may argue that, but you've certainly not demonstrated it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, let me ask you this. You certainly haven't demonstrated that they are equal. </p>

<p>Besides, I'll give you this anecdote. Why does Harvard run both an economics pHD program (within GSAS) and a business economics PhD program (within the business school)? If they're the same program with the same outcome and same focus, then why not just have one big unified program? </p>

<p>
[quote]
And no new standalone economics schools are being built. But business schools are being built out at a rapid pace.</p>

<p>Sounds good for all of the Econ PhD's...taking positions that the Business PhD's dont want. lol

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And you just strengthened my case right there. After all, at the margins, who is more likely to get a position in a business school - a guy with a business PhD, or a guy with an econ PhD? Of course they can BOTH get it. But who has the edge?</p>

37

<p>*Uhh, you know what I'm talking about. Those countries are more interested in building their economies *</p>

<p>Right. Economies. Macroeconomics. That's not business.</p>

<p>*My point is that there is more GROWTH of business positions in Asia than there are growth of economics positions *</p>

<p>That remains to be seen.</p>

<p>*However, I think even most economics PhD students will agree that business is more applied. Heck, that is in fact the ROLE of business PhD programs. *</p>

<p>Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on the area.</p>

<p>And business PhD's is MORE SO. That's the point</p>

<p>And you've yet to demonstrate that.</p>

<p>*Besides, let me put it to you this way. If economics and business Phd programs were exactly the same in focus and outcome, then why even have 2 different programs? The fact that the 2 are disparate programs must mean that there are some differences. *</p>

<p>In focus sure. The outcome is what we are discussing. </p>

<p>*Well, let me ask you this. You certainly haven't demonstrated that they are equal. *</p>

<p>I never said that they were equal. I said that it wasn't clear that there is any marked difference in their placement situation. You claimed that oh, look, they can place in X,Y & Z jobs. I simply pointed out that people with econ PhD's do as well. </p>

<p>After all, at the margins, who is more likely to get a position in a business school - a guy with a business PhD, or a guy with an econ PhD? Of course they can BOTH get it. But who has the edge?</p>

<p>It is not clear. That's my point. You can speculate about this and that, but that's about all you've done. Unless you can present any emperical evidence, you're just talking out of your a$$.</p>

38

<p>Let me ask you another question...</p>

<p>Why, if those posessing a PhD in economics were deficient or somehow lacking with respect to the knowledge/research skills, etc. of Business PhD's, would Business PhD programs, especially top PhD programs, hire a significant portion of their profs from Econ PhD's programs, while seemingly only a very small percentage of Econ profs anywhere hold a PhD in business?</p>

39

<p>I'm only in my first year of undergrad, but I'm thinking of majoring in econ. Would a double major in Honours Econ (with all the required math, econometrics, and thesis components) and IR make for a competitive application to a grad program? I'm really interested in in doing a PPE-type course of study... do they have that at the grad level?</p>

40

<p>^ oxford comes to mind; I'm sure there are plenty of other programs like it</p>