Eighty-eight percent of students go to schools where tuition and fees are lower than

<p>"I see already that the overpriced elite's are going to run out of interested middle and upper middle class buyers (parents) who no longer see the return on investment for their hard earned dollars and will be sending their bright offspring to colleges that will reward the students' accomplishments with merit aid. Of course, many parents who do not have "brand name paralysis" have been doing just that for years."</p>

<p>I never thought about a ROI on my son's education. How do parents measure a ROI on their child's/young adult's education and social experience at college? Are they expected to earn a certain amount of money, get into a certain grad school, achieve a certain position? Perhaps those who look at this like an ROI model SHOULD send their kids to a less expensive school in order to better their chances for a successful outcome (ROI). I would bet that many of the parents who choose to pay for a more expensive school aren't looking for a specific return, except that their child will feel fulfilled by an enjoyable experience. How do you measure that?</p>

<p>There is no shortage of parents willing and able to pay for expensive, private schools. The number of applicants just keeps increasing and the odds of acceptance gets worse. The reason that lesser schools may be willing to give merit aid is to attract top students. Most of us are tired of having our kids dragged down by mediocre secondary schools and we don't want that to continue in college. A small number of top students really doesn't do much to improve the overall quality of a mediocre school, but it sure can be difficult for those students to meet their potential in that dull environment.</p>

<p>I think one of the things that draws me to this forum is to be able to share things about my kids' college and pre-college experiences that I don't share in my personal interactions (other than with family and a couple of close friends who have kids in similar settings). While other parents go into great detail about their children's college search and college life, I usually just listen and draw them out. When asked about my own kids, I tend to keep the answers brief. I have found that this way of handling things minimizes the chance for discomfort on both sides.</p>

<p>sjmom,
I don't know about "embarrassed" about naming the school, but I definitely consider it not relevant to offer the information -- & particularly unless someone asks about her current whereabouts and esp. if they have known her for some time.</p>

<p>Overall, I think the problem arises over the difference between exclusivity and inclusivity. When someone says the word "elite" to me, I associate that with an exclusive population. Anyone who thinks that an Ivy admission, or a top LAC admission, is an exclusive universe, is flattering himself/herself. My D had several teachers in h.s. who would not only have been Ivy material today, but could easily teach at an Ivy. They are no less than brilliant, & I credit them for much of my D's academic success. Not a single one of those several teachers graduated from an Ivy. One of the most stunning of those minds graduated from an obscure Public that is never mentioned on these boards. Many CC'ers know examples like this.</p>

<p>And UChicago students or applicants who delude themselves into believing that "only" that population puts academics foremost, are embarrassingly uninformed. Not choosing Chicago is by no means evidence of where one puts academics on a list of priorities.</p>

<p>UCBerkeley, which was on my D's list, is absolutely adequate for her intellectual needs; it was not optimal for her psychological, social, & cultural needs -- including needs relative to her Major. She had a choice which was "more optimal."</p>

<p>How anyone can conclude that the above "smacks of elitism" is beyond me.</p>

<p>dstark- thanks for that link. I sent it to S and his college counselor and I think it should replace the US News rankings!</p>

<p>MomofWildChild, It works for a lot of kids I know.</p>

<p>I don't like the word elite. It is a label that alienates people. Many people assume that a team, school, choir, etc. that has enjoyed a certain level of success or acclaim is full of people that are "full of themselves" and look down on others, and I think that is narrowminded. People that love to learn will be drawn to certain places, people that love to compete in swimming will be drawn to teams that have shown success in getting their swimmers up to a certain level (speed), people who love to sing in a certain style, like a certain sound, will be drawn to join a certain type of choir. Why label people as being elitist just because they are picky and won't settle if they don't have to? Why does choosing a school where there are more of your kind -- what we are talking about here, I guess, is kids with a certain level academic talent -- have to be labeled as being elitist?</p>

<p>mstee, I guess it comes down to how many people get to shop around and choose a school that fits? I am talking about any school, not just HYPSM.</p>

<p>How many students get to go to schools with sticker prices over $24,000 a year? I am not talking about the ability to pay. How many get to go even if aid is included?</p>

<p>How many people get to say I turned down a top 25 school because the fit wasn't right? Or the weather wasn't right? Or after visiting 10 schools, I decided the tour guide didn't reflect the kind of people I wanted to associate with?</p>

<p>A lot less than is indicated by reading college confidential.</p>

<p>"mstee, I guess it comes down to how many people get to shop around and choose a school that fits?"</p>

<p>I am not sure what you mean by "get to." Any of us can go shop for a Lexus even if we don't think we can afford one.</p>

<p>I am absolutely amazed at the attitude about colleges at my D's former HS. This is an expensive part of the country with a range of incomes - but many quite high. There are a number of very smart kids with certainly more than enough money to cover expensive tuition costs. According to my D, very few kids got to look anywhere but the instate public U's. This is a State with mediocre to poor U's so I just don't understand. This is a moderately affluent area but not an academic or especially high tech area. Apparently education is of minimal concern.</p>

<p>I'm not talking about window shopping.</p>

<p>Only a "very few kids got to look anywhere but the instate public U's". (That is what I am saying). </p>

<p>Is education only a concern if you go out and look at schools that are not public in-state?</p>

<p>edad-- I agree, a lot more people could be shopping if they had the interest. Why label those that do as "elite?" </p>

<p>My nephew decided a $10,000 school "fit" him better than the $20,000 (would have been $15,000 with the merit aid discount) school he was looking at in the midwest. It is a state school that suits him to a tee. I also have a niece that would probably be considered low income who is going to a private school in Iowa that no one on this board has ever heard of. But she too, shopped for fit. </p>

<p>I have yet to say, (and with two kids in college) that we toured 10 schools for any kid. But, hey, if I get the opportunity to do it with one of the three remaining, I'm going for it! </p>

<p>I have experienced the "other side of the coin" or rather, the "not having any coins." So, I know l/my kids lucky to be able to have such choices. And I'm lucky to be living in CA, where it is perhaps not as bleak for lower income kids as it seems to be elsewhere. Some kids may not be shopping for fit at the four year colleges, but are choosing which community colleges "fit" better--some of them have some excellent programs and all feed directly into the UC pipeline (with good grades) after two years. If our income drops, which it could, who knows? the remaining kids will still have at least some choices and can still shop for fit, at least among the excellent public schools here.</p>

<p>Sorry I haven't read through this whole thread. There are two reasons in our household that we don't flaunt S's elite school:
(1) We know admissions there are due to fit/luck/quirkiness. He's quirky!<br>
(2) We have an equally talented daughter who was not admitted to an elite school. But it was a good one. In her presence we often admire her school. And we buy the same number of mugs and keychains and sweatshirts for both schools!</p>

<p>
[quote]
I agree, a lot more people could be shopping if they had the interest. Why label those that do as "elite?"

[/quote]
No. The vast majority of all college-bound high school grads - probably 90% or more - do not have the economic resources to pay for private college, nor the star-quality academic or athletic credentials to attract significant financial aid dollars. Many don't even have the financial resources to pay for room & board - they go to the local community colleges or a nearby state university, commuting from home, because that is their only option for higher education. "Fit" is a luxury. This situation is getting worse as the cost of public schools also goes up, so even many state university campuses are out of reach financially to their residents.</p>

<p>Calmom, even with state colleges--public colleges--within California and Washington (and most other states) there is a wide range of choices. Here is WA, we have tiny Evergreen State College and huge WSU; in CA, there are a wealth of different UCs and SCs... There are even community colleges. "Fit" is not a luxury, it's not elite, and it's not limited to private colleges.</p>

<p>dstark,
regarding the "getting to shop around" issue:</p>

<p>Here's a rather non-elite example.
I know closely a URM family definitely of lower SES, in an urban location with below-standard public elem. & high schools available. D was a B student in a local religious school which had substandard teaching, i.m.o. & in the opinion of the family. Mother looked at h.s. options for her D, & they did not look good. Mother, from a decidedly non-elite background herself, was sharp enough & determined enough to seek better for her D. So, from her outlying area with a barely functioning car, & from a run-down neighborhood, she sought & obtained admission for her D. to a fabulous private h.s., where the family also received FA. She was no better equipped & had no more resources than anyone else from that ethnic group living in that neighborhood, but apparently she had one thing that they may have lacked: motivation.</p>

<p>Because the D's middle-school curriculum poorly prepared her for that fabulous h.s., the D needed extra help from teachers at the high school & from the parents at home, who monitored, encouraged the girl & kept her on track. (The parents are not professionals: one does not work; the other barely graduated from a 4-yr state school on athletic scholarship.) No, the D did not graduate Cum Laude or something, but she did graduate from a more than respectable school, easily learned 3 times what she would have learned in a diff. kind of school, & because of that opportunity is attending this fall a local 4-yr liberal arts college with support for learning challenges & a special major geared toward her talents & which will provide her with far better than minimum-wage opportunities. It is a career track as well as a B.A. or B.S. (I forget.) Need-based FA is also available at this college; surely they received that.</p>

<p>Without the mother's smarts & guts, I would question whether the girl was even headed for community college at age 18. The mother has made it her business to become informed -- newspapers, books, libraries, internet, whatever she needed to learn how to work the educational opportunities that are available to much more than the "elite." The family also bought cheap tickets to fly to some other colleges during the search process -- just like the well-heeled classmates did. The D "got to" do this because the mother made it possible -- not with money, not with fancy education of her own -- but with determination, planning, and not "settling."</p>

<p>Now, it may be more logical, more a part of the "drill" for a well-educated family to take such a proactive & even aggressive part in a child's education & future plans, but the mother in question did not wait for someone to hand her a Permission Slip or a Club Membership card. She's a member of the club because she lives in this country & has an inborn right to seek the highest level of opportunity which she & any member of her family can reach.</p>

<p>On a less extreme & more universal level, all of the families in my D's h.s., many of whom are quite upper-crust, achieved any positive college admissions results by having to do it themselves. The college counselor was mostly useless in any student's particular efforts. This is a small school, mind you, but seems to be not much different from large Publics in the area of college counseling: bare minimum, generalized information that anyone can read in a book, a very "generic" & counseling-for-the-masses approach. No guidance on tailoring the application, visiting colleges, setting up an E.C. page, etc. Any family that wanted admission either to an upper-level Public, or to a private second-tier or above, was left to its own resources, from start to finish. Nothing "get to" about it. No road map, no individualized tour guide.</p>

<p>and an imp. addendum to my last:</p>

<p>The family above spent a considerable amount of time -- not money-- on fit. At one point the D was interested in a very large OOS Public (not top-tier). Wisely, the mother steered her away from this -- although I know the D did visit. Quiet D needed a much smaller school, also needed more individualized learning resources, which she would not get in most large publics. All that info as to such differences between schools was & is available online & from a telephone. The mother was not given special, elite training in How To Get Information.</p>

<p>In fact, I have to say that the eventual college choice was not one that even most informed & educated people would have thought of for that student. It took drive on the part of the mother to discover such a fit. It is one of the most perfect fits I have ever seen in college choices. And it was the result of raw love -- which is not a commodity reserved for the elite.</p>

<p>What I have noticed is that there are plenty of families, including in the middle & upper-middle class who BELIEVE that fit is a luxury. Also plenty of families in that SES who tell their students that they don't "get to" look at Privates, because (a) the family has practical agendas (b) the family thinks that a private price tag is not worth it, (c) the family exerts cultural & financial pressures for the student's enrollment in a Public, (d) the student would not qualify for enrollment-managed FA & would not or could not be supported by parents if choosing a Private.</p>

<p>There are choices, at all income levels, at least in the neck of the woods that we live in. Kids around here that are headed to a CC in the Bay Area can and do shop for fit. Kids that go to the CalStates shop for fit. There are some wonderful CalStates that compare very favorably with many private schools (Sonoma State, Cal State Monterey and Humboldt come to mind as three that we are familiar with because they were on the list for our oldest). Kids that shop the publics in CA can probably find a good "fit." Good fit is not limited to being able to go anywhere/afford anything in the US, unless you choose to define it that way. If our income were to disappear, our shopping list would be different, no doubt, but we could still shop and look for the best fit of the options (and there would still be a few) available. Lets hope that funding for higher public education doesn't completely dry up and it remains that way.</p>

<p>epiphany--"the perfect fit." And you don't name the school? I'm dying to know . . .</p>

<p>I'll PM you, mstee. :-)</p>

<p>Well, I'll say again what I've said before. The private college I work for is mainly populated by lower SES, URM students. About 20% of the freshman class have family incomes lower than 15,000. Most students get Pell grants. They are not the academic stars from their high schools (those kids go the flagship publics or to upper tier privates on scholarship.) But they are the persistent, students who plugged away at school while others around them were going astray. Their SATs average under 900. But here they are, in a small LAC, having looked at the CCs and the nearby publics, and decided that this was a better fit for them.</p>