Eliminating Class Rank, Weighted Gpa--bad Decision?

Parents Forum
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<p>"As a little more background, ours is a Catholic co-ed high school in an exurb"</p>

<p>DDjones, after reading the first sentences of your ORIGINAL post, I smiled while thinking; "Let me guess, this must be a Catholic School." The mentioning of Notre Dame was a sure giveway. </p>

<p>After spending a lot of time on this issue, my conclusion is that Catholic schools are experts at shooting at their own foot. You will find countless examples of religious schools clinging to the illusory notion that the school SHOULD shine through their curriculum strength, tough grading policies, mandatory classes -that are universally discounted by colleges- or other 'different" practices. </p>

<p>The sad reality is that, despite a proven approach to education, religious schools are left behind by the speed of changes -that some call progress. Next to the "tough" catholic schools, now we see an explosion of new strategies at public schools ranging from ridiculous grading and weighing policies, the introduction of great sounding programs such as IB, and the manic pursuit of every AP produced by TCB. Those programs and policies are exploding for a good reason: they seem to work! As a result, the world of rigorous religious -and private- schools is quickly eroding. The matriculation lists are sure signs of the changing times. You will still see occasional listings of Ivy League and ... Notre Dame. What will be absent from most matriculation lists are the selective state schools such as Michigan or Virginia -unless instate. </p>

<p>Facing a "new world" many religious schools are burying their head in even deeper sand. They decide to move away from AP classes -many times because of the costs- and pay little attention to the requirements of SAT Subjects Tests. They decide to drop ranking and weights because they feel the need to protect the students who fall below the top 2-3%, and may even attempt to play some games. However, this IS NOT working. The best students are hurt and the students who are next in line do not find much help because of their limited options. The lower GPA are hurting students in admissions at competitive state schools, and more importantly hurt the students seeking merit aid and scholarships. </p>

<p>This said, it is a given that schools with a long established reputation can ALMOST do as they please. For those schools, colleges will spend the time to analyze the changes and understand the variances. However, the smaller or lesser known schools that decide to emulate the Boston Latin of this world, are not that lucky. Rather than finding success in clinging to their "tougher" policies, they would find much better success in borrowing a page from the cynical public system: rampant grade inflation, numerous watered down AP or IB classes, multiple valedictorians work a lot better in the current state of admissions. </p>

<p>As I said, it is a sad reality!</p>

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<p>Again, I am so grateful to all of you for your input--I really feel like I'm getting a viewpoint from all over the country...keep 'em coming!</p>

<p>A little more description of my daughter's school. It is considered a regional Catholic high school, meaning it serves 14 Catholic parishes in its area. The enrollment is about 600, declining a bit of late with tuition increases.</p>

<p>It is not what I would consider in any way an elite school, but rather a school that, as the only Catholic high school in a 35-mile radius in a growing county of 100,000, literally serves all needs. The faculty is excellent and the AP-level courses are as high quality as one would find in any elite St. Louis prep school. In any given class year, the top 20% or so would fare well in any elite school--sometimes more, sometimes less. At the other end of the spectrum are a number of students dual enrolled in the vo-tech school and making use of the learning consultant. I'm not aware of any students who have gone the Ivy route in recent years--I doubt many have applied. My son got into Notre Dame, another classmate went to University of Chicago--it's a rarity to have two kids in a class go to schools that prestigious. Parents here would rather their child get a large scholarship to a closer school like University of Missouri or St. Louis University than go for the Ivy's. </p>

<p>Thus, I don't think it's apples to apples with some of the elite high schools you mention. People here still have small town Midwestern values, including thrift...which means that a list of where graduates attend isn't going to reflect the quality of the top tier of students. Without weighting, there are kids who could literally be taking Foods, Child Development and Basic Chemistry whose GPA's could be lumped in with kids taking Calculus I, Honors American History and Physics.</p>

<p>Do you think this makes a difference or not?</p>

<p>Again, thanks for all your responses--keep 'em coming! :)</p>

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<p>Eliminating class rank is probably a good thing. Eliminating weighting of course can be a DISASTER. Let me elaborate:</p>

<p>Many schools use the GPA posted on the high school transcript for the comparison with other students. If a school weights the grades, they would use the weighted value in a number of cases, although not all schools do this. If there is no weighted GPA, they will be forced to use unweighted GPA and make a value judgment concerning the quality of courses taken. This could REALLY hurt kids in tough programs, taking top courses etc.</p>

<p>Let's use the University of Cincinnati as an example. They have a very selective program in their School of Design, Art, Architecture and Planning. They normally mandate a class rank for early admission of top 10% and to 20%, depending on SAT scores, for regular admission. They also want an unweighted GPA of at least 3.75 for early admission and 3.5 or better for regular admission. </p>

<p>If you have a kid attending a very competitive school or a magnet school, getting into the top 10 or 20% can be a lot more brutal than attending a regular or mediocre high school. Thus, magnet school kids get the shaft.</p>

<p>As for the GPA, using regular unweighted grades really will make the student subject to the whims of the admission's officer. They may not give the appropriate weight to the courses that the toughness demands. Again, this mitigates against kids taking mostly honors or AP courses or those that participate in magnet programs. </p>

<p>Admittedly, not all schools work like University of Cinncinnati, but I can say that a fair number of schools conduct their admission's policy in a similar way. </p>

<p>In addition, having a school profile can help eliminate some of these problems for some schools. However, if the profile gives a good estimate of rank anyway, why eliminate rank?</p>

<p>Thus, I would guess that this high school policy change's effect will depend on "whose ox is gored." For the top kids applying to the Ivys or for the very highly selective ivy type of schools, I don't think it will be a problem. For a lot of other schools, however, this new policy could well become a problem.</p>

<p>My personal take is that I would be against the change in weighting the grades. At least the colleges can get an idea of how the high schools weight honors and AP courses compared to their regular courses.</p>

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<p>It's nice to hear that college admissions have worked out well for a variety of high school environments. I jave three data points to . D#1 attended weak public high school and a competitive private high school, The private school did not rank and the publi did,. Both weighted for Honors and APs, though the weighting systgems differed.. D#2 attends a Catholic high school which also ranks and</p>

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<p>Our HS ranks the top 10% only. They felt the top kids deserve the recognition. It also helps for scholarship consideration and some other programs. The feeling was that if you were not in the top 10% it wasn't as necessary or helpful to pinpoint exactly where you were in relationship to the entire graduating class. This method has worked well for my family. D # 1 who was ranked did quite well in her admission choices. D # 2 is a solid student but my quess is that she would rank top 25%-35%. I don't think the specific ranking would really help her. Our school does weight the AP and Honors classes by adding 5 points for AP and 2 points for Honors. We also do not do GPA's -we use numeric grades- so the top 10% may have averages from 94-101 (or thereabouts). I believe every HS profile will give some details about how the kids did in relationship to one another, so even if a school doesn't rank, the college admissions office does have an inkling where each kid stands. I like the top 10% ranking method.</p>

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<p>Sorry, computer hiccup'd before I could finish and edit. Here is the completed entry:</p>

<p>It's nice to hear that college admissions have worked out well for a variety of high school environments. I can add three additional data points. D#1 attended a weak public high school and then a competitive private high school. The private school did not rank. The public did. Both weighted for Honors and APs, although the weighting systems differed and the number of honors/AP courses was much greater at the private school (despite having many fewer students). Most of the private school students ended up at competitive colleges. The public high school sends perhaps one student every other year. D#2 attends a Catholic high school which also ranks and weights, and the weighting differs from both the public and the private high schools D#1 attended. The Catholic school sends perhaps 10% of its students to competitve colleges and most of the rest to good quality schools. </p>

<p>Perhaps college admissions officers deserve more credit than they're sometimes given. Sure, our weak public high school has as many students with high unweighted GPAs as D#1's private school and D#2's Catholic school. But the paucity of Honors and AP courses (and significantly lower standardized test scores) may undermine many applications, regardless of a student's high class rank.</p>

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<p>As long as a high school indicates honors & AP courses, I see no down side to eliminating weighting along with a move to eliminate rank -- the colleges can recalculate on their own if they wish. In fact, in a way that is better because weighting systems and policies are so variable -- some schools are using a 6.0 system, some a 5.0 system -- some give weight to "honors" designations that are rather liberal, some only to APs and courses specifically approved for rigor.</p>

<p>I think that the loss of weighting is potentially hurtful in college admissions for the top 5%, beneficial for the remaining 95%. By that rationale, a school is doing a favor for the majority of its students when it eliminates ranking.</p>

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<p>That is why our school continues to rank top 10% only. They are trying to "showcase" and help the top students the best way they can. And I think it is the right thing to do. As I said before, I have 2 kids one who was ranked, the other not. This ranking method has been fine for us. I really like the stand my HS District takes on trying to help their top students.</p>

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<p>I'm reviving this thread because it has been so helpful already! To recap, my daughter's high school is formulating a policy to eliminate class rank and weighted GPA. At this point, most everybody is sold on the benefit of eliminating class rank. A few key questions remain, though--among them, how the schools handle the transition, particularly for the current junior class, who has operated under one system for three years and are being transitioned to a different one. </p>

<p>Some key questions: How do other schools with class rank eliminated deal with those instititutions which still insist upon it? How do they deal with valedictorian, salutatorian selection? Do students have the opportunity to see their class rank if they request it--particularly if they might be in contention for valedictorian or might be applying to a school that requires class rank to be sent? </p>

<p>Finally, what is your opinion of eliminating or keeping class rank--particularly in light of how it affects college admissions? What is your school's current policy, is it a recent change, and how do you feel it is going so far?</p>

<p>The best research I've done on this topic so far comes from people who have written in this forum!</p>

<p>Thanks :)</p>

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<p>ddjones:</p>

<p>perhaps its just the circles I run in, but I've never heard of a college "insisting" on class rank. Our district does not rank -- will only mark top decile if true-- and kids get accepted into top schools every year.</p>

<p>fyi -- approx. 50% of California publics do not rank (and, that's a lot of high schools).</p>

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<p>ddjones, </p>

<p>If the schools your daughter is interested in puts out a common data set, when you get a chance take a look at it. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=76444%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=76444&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You would be suprised that a large number of schools have a large number of students mariculated who came from schools that do not rank:</p>

<p>for example:</p>

<p>According to Amhert's mosr recent CDS, only 47% of the students submitted a class rank</p>

<p>barnard 45% submitted rank</p>

<p>Dartmouth 48% submitted rank</p>

<p>MIT 58% submitted rank</p>

<p>My daughter attended a school that did not rank. However, the GC would rank confidentially for admissions or scholarship purposes.</p>

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<p>Our suburban, highly competitive public high school eliminated the publication of exact rank perhaps four years ago. We still use weighted GPA. The results have been IMO positive.</p>

<p>There has been no discernible change in our college admissions. There is also no discernible interest in our community to return to exact class rank.</p>

<p>Our school routinely divulges decile rank to colleges. The school will divulge even more, privately, if required for scholarship applications (e.g. top 5 percent). They will not divulge exact class rank because a college requests or "requires" it.</p>

<p>We have no val or sal. There is a process to choose speakers for graduation. Kids apply, write a draft speech and are interviewed by the administration. I think speakers must be in the top half or fourth of the class.</p>

<p>I do not know if kids can request their class rank for any reason but I am inclined to doubt it since that would defeat one of the purposes of the change.</p>

<p>To me, exact class rank was unhelpful because it created an inducement for kids to struggle, strategize and make course selections for the sake of hundreths of a point in GPA. For example, in one well-publicized case in our state, a student was (suspiciously, in the eyes of many) medically excused from gym and therefore was able to fit another, higher weighted course into her schedule and thus earn a slightly higher GPA than her peers, who were required to take gym. Such differences in GPA IMO are not meaningful indicators of difference in performance, ability, or future success in life. I would rather see kids devote their energies in other, more constructive directions.</p>

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<p>My kids school just eliminated rank and went to a weighted GPA this year after recommendations from AO that having class rank adversely affected admissions.</p>

<p>They will have a val and sal for the next 3 classes. They send out deciles based on students weighted and unweighted GPA. They are only ranking confidentially if the school insists.</p>

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<p>Last year my daughter graduated from an urban public school with a diversity of students. It did not weight grades, but did rank students.</p>

<p>My daughter was the type that took challanging classes, but didn't necessarily get straight As. As a result she was barely in the top 10% of her class of 400.</p>

<p>The School Board makes a big deal out of the top 25 students -- special awards ceremony, recognition at graduation, pictures in local paper. It hurt my daughter's feelings not to be in top 25, but not her college applications.</p>

<p>She was accepted at every college to which she applied, invited into honors programs, and offered academic scholarships. This was definitely not the case for at least half the students, maybe more, ranked ahead of her.</p>

<p>She would have enjoyed the recognition the top ranked students received, but the end result of her hard work was acceptance by a respected LAC she loves with enough academic scholarships to make it mo more costly than attending a state university.</p>

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<p>ADad, you description sounds very much like our hs, but there are probably many hs in NJ that fit the description. Top 15% information (2nd decile would not provide sufficient information) is needed to qualify for Rutgers merit scholarships as well as other NJ public colleges. </p>

<p>We were just looking at Wesleyan's mailling. A staggering 80% of the class was in the top 10% of their HS graduating class. This doesn't happen by accident. My guess is the only way you get around that cutoff is to have a major major hook.</p>

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<p>I still believe that schools abandon ranking and weighing systems for all the wrong reasons. </p>

<p>While there are schools that could implement any kind of system with great success, the schools that I've seen abandoning ranking are mostly small private schools. When it comes to admissions to selective schools, small schools are not hurt by the absence of ranking. However, a lack of ranking represents a considerable hindrance at larger schools, and especially state schools. And there is the crux of the problem: students with high GPA -UW or weighed- who would have finished in a top ranking will find some slight benefits -for instance on the AI scale. However, how does the elimination of weighted grades and ranking end up HELPING the lower ranked students remains a mystery to me. </p>

<p>IMHO, I believe that every HS in the country should be forced to use a common system to report the grades and rankings, and then provide the detailed information to every parent in the form of several reports/transcripts. In turn, it would be up to the parents to decide to send a ranked or unranked, or a weighted or unweighted report to the individual schools. Schools are responsible for providing a fair and verifiable grading system. However, the presentation of the grades should not be left in the hands of people who have only a remote interest in the success of their students. </p>

<p>College admissions are ALL about measuring individual qualities and accomplishments. High schools are trying too hard to relocate to the shores of Lake Wobegon.</p>

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<p>Most colleges are fully aware of the rigor of curriculum at well known private/prep schools and ranking is not an issue. My son's school gives the colleges a grade distribution report (as part of the school profile) for all classes taken by the student with that student's grade in the class highlighted. They see all courses offered, courses taken and performance in each course taken compared to others in the class. From what I understand this is a practice used by many other top prep schools as well. </p>

<p>This report allows colleges to see Honors/AP classes and performance in each versus peers. They can also see how many students are enrolled in these classes and in a way they can then back into a rough ranking.</p>

<p>This might be a suggestion for your school to help alleviate fears caused by the change.</p>