However, how much of a trade-off in terms of what classes are offered, how often they are offered, and ability of students to enroll in them is acceptable to get smaller classes?
Most colleges do not have infinite instructional resources (instructors, classrooms of the desired sizes, labs of the desired sizes, etc.), so they have to make trade-offs in various areas between class size, offerings, offering frequency, and enrollment limits.
I donāt think anyone said large classes canāt be effective. I believe the discussion is ādo small class sizes offer an advantage over large ones?ā and āshould collegeās that have smaller class sizes be a positive when putting a ranking system together?ā Can a large CS class with a great instructor be a great environment? Absolutely. Can that experience trump a small class size with a poor instructor? Absolutely. How about switching professors in that enviornment? Great famous professor teaching a small class and a poor one teaching a large one? Or How about the exact same professor teaching both a large and small section? Ideally which do you think would be a better enviornment? Many honors colleges do just that. Why do their best students get the smaller, more personal instruction?
When you compare institutions in general, can you give one school a + because they have small class sizes as a rule? I think that all evidence says yes.
There are bigger leaps in the ranking algorithms than class size I think. To scream āgamingā when a school has a large number of 19 student class sizes isnāt a good place to hunt. If I believe class size is important, I would also offer the largest small class size. Is that 19 or 20? If 19 also has the benefit of getting positive news out to the world, Iād choose 19 too. Iād to it unashamed.
The discussion on this thread also isnāt comparing 19 student vs. 20 student classes. It is comparing 19 student vs. 200 student classes with TAs and Profs.
In that case I donāt think comparison on a school-wide basis is very helpful at all. Discerning students and parents should instead consider class size and prof quality in the context of the chosen major. Small class size may be good in some instances but not in all.
Because stronger students have more choices of colleges to attend, so the big university may have to offer the honors program to attract some of the stronger students who have other choices.
Of course, that may be the opposite of which students need the smaller, more personal instruction more. The stronger students may be capable of learning in a variety of class formats, while the average or weaker students may need the personal attention more in order to succeed.
"This makes STEM students sound like passive empty vessels one just pours knowledge into that they spit back out.
I disagree."
What is your disagreement based on? Iām familiar with a lot of STEM programs and thatās pretty much the way it is, ucbalumnus points out that junior and senior years, thereās more latitude given in upper level courses.
āquestions about the theory of evolution or climate changeā
Maybe in a social science class, you talk about these, but in a stem class on bio or genetics, thatās not on the syllabus.
āWhen a prof is going over a new concept - asking for clarification or repetition is often helpful to the learning process.ā
Clarification happens for sure and that is helpful agree, but thatās not challenging.
There are open questions in evolution and climate science (not the political ones relating to denial of such) that could very well be encountered in undergraduate courses, particularly upper level ones. Of course, any undergraduate who does undergraduate research is likely to be working on some kind of open question.
ātop private research school He sits in classes with 15 +/- students and they and the professor have a discussion on the required reading from the previous week or work through problems togetherā
Is it the same CS class? CS classes donāt have required reading, there may be a textbook but you donāt have to read it.
āMy thought is that both threads should enable readers to find schools offering an enhanced undergraduate educational experience.ā
If you can afford it, which most families canāt. And enhanced undergraduate educational experience is highly subjective, and does not mean just smaller class sizes to debate whether Einstein was overrated. Many more people accept the trade off of affordability for larger class sizes and the opportunities at places like Stanford, Berkeley, Michigan, MIT and other research universities.
āThis research, though designed to compare liberal arts colleges to universities and regional institutions, nonetheless seems to suggest that students benefit from smaller classes in general:ā
Thatās basically what they want to you to think.
@ucbalumnus wrote: āBecause stronger students have more choices of colleges to attend, so the big university may have to offer the honors program to attract some of the stronger students who have other choices.ā
So, that large university is trying to attract students who have other choices. To entice them, they offer small class sizes. Therefore, even the large university that canāt afford to give everyone a small class size chooses to do so with their most coveted students. So they at the very least see that there is a perceived benefit if not an actual one.
@theloniusmonk: wrote āIf you can afford it, which most families canātā.
I dealt with this concern in post #11 on my other thread āWSJ / THE List of Top 100 US Colleges by Spending on Instruction & Student Servicesā.
@theloniusmonk nope, not CS. This is all his classes though, whether they are STEM or Humanities. That was why the āorā was in the statement.
At ddās school, any big lecture has a mandatory recitation. DD says her recitations, no more than 20 students, are run by PhD students, and are fantastic. Profs will also drop into recitations regularly. She only has two classes, out of five, that are big enough to have recitations. All of her professors know her by name (she goes to everything offered, and there is a lot of supplemental instruction offered). Her other classes are small (20 students). Sheās a first year engineering student at a public flagship. She was told by her advisor that starting next year her largest classes will be 45 students.
āSo, that large university is trying to attract students who have other choices. To entice them, they offer small class sizesā
That would depend on the university, Michigan has a honors program for its largest school, LS&A, but itās 500 people, not exactly the intimate 20 people class people want on this thread. Berkeley does not have any kind of honors program where they take a few hundred kids and give them small classes throughout college. There are other public universities that do that, agree with the general point.
nope, not CS. This is all his classes though, whether they are STEM or Humanities. That was why the āorā was in the statement.
Ok, you have to compare like classes, do you have any experience with the same class, like Calculus or Chemistry and whether a 200 person class is worse than a 20 person class.
āThe proliferation of classes with fewer than 20 students and low student to faculty ratios is a modern phenomena, unrelated with quality of instruction or classroom experience, but rather, entirely related to gaming the rankings.ā
Entirely disagree with this comment! Discussion-based classrooms cannot exist with more than 20ish students, and this type of learning very clearly affects the classroom experience. In my mind, the reason to attend a small LAC, and one that includes a diverse and intellectual student body, is to share discussion in the classroom. Small classes also increase attendance and encourage homework preparation. There is a reason k-12 schools are striving for smaller class sizes, and the same principles apply to learning at the graduate level.
I think the answer depends on the type of class and the professor who teaches it. If the class is mostly lectures and the professor is a world-class researcher with unique insights and perspectives, or is highly elucidating, Iād choose him/her in a large class over a mediocre lecturer in a small class. On the other hand, if a class is mostly discussions or requires more interactions, then a smaller class would make more sense. Fortunately, most colleges do take these issues into consideration.
@theloniusmonk I guess weāll just have to say your experience was like that and mine wasnāt.
It was a benefit to me to be able to ask questions of a professor during class, to try to approach problems in more than one way, to challenge what I was being told - and no, I didnāt challenge the notion of zero, thatās just dumb. I took plenty of STEM classes.
Iām sorry you werenāt able to have that kind of undergraduate experience.
You donāt HAVE to read for any class. But if readings are assigned, itās often a good idea to read them. In CS or anything else. And of course many CS classes have required reading. Look at a syllabus.
I can only supply anecdotal info here, but I did discuss this thread with S (a CS student) over lunch today. As far as large classes are concerned he had an interesting observation. Classes in his major have all been much greater that 20 and he has loved them all. His most favorite class to date was also the largest at 645 students in Fall of 2017. Most of the other classes have been in the 200 range. When I asked about the ability to ask questions in class the reply was a quizzical āsureā. All profs pause to ask and press for questions, are available right after class, and during office hours. Interestingly, his non-major required courses (language, writing, philosophy etc) have the small head counts (5-9 students).
āAnd of course many CS classes have required reading. Look at a syllabus.ā
CS books like Kernigan and Ritchie for C++ or any of Knuths books/works on programming are not read cover to cover or a portion of them assigned a particular class to be discussed in the next class, like any of the liberal arts core programs. Those books should be read because they explain the concepts well but theyāre reference books, nobody challenges the content or tries to figure out different interpretations. Knuth is a Cal Tech Phd and Stanford Emeritus in CS, and is about as influential a CS teacher as there has been, he knows more than most professors or students, it would be a waste of time the argue concepts in his book, rather than understand them.
Sorry thatās not accurate. I found online syllabi where readings from the text were assigned and required.
Johns Hopkins Intro CS: https://cty.jhu.edu/summer/docs/syllabi/fcps_2.pdf
MIT Math for CS: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-042j-mathematics-for-computer-science-fall-2010/syllabus/
In Stanford CS101 they write a paper also: https://web.stanford.edu/class/cs101/syllabus.html
Harvard Ext CS course specifically ON reading relevant papers in CS: https://canvas.harvard.edu/courses/34992/assignments/syllabus
Capstone course in CS at WashU: https://faculty.washington.edu/joelross/courses/archive/s13/cs440/ - they have to read AND write.
Honestly itās not unusual at all to have required reading in CS courses. It appears to be quite common. And the ones I found in about 3 minutes searching are all Uās not even LACs.
MODERATORāS NOTE:
And many donāt. So letās move on from supplying data points on this tangential thought.
āHis most favorite class to date was also the largest at 645 students in Fall of 2017. Most of the other classes have been in the 200 range.ā
That seems about right for most schools, CS being a popular (maybe most popular) major, will have large classes, which is totally fine, because smaller class sizes do not benefit CS, as Iāve been opining all along. Colleges have a pretty good idea of what works for what classes based on their own surveys, professor ratings, changes in majors, classes with lots of adds/drops, and they know that small classes are not needed for CS, so they can have larger classes, accepting more students into CS (or any engineering really) which is good since we need more STEM students.