Elite Liberal Arts Colleges Vs. Ivies/Top Universities?

<p>Or, PhDs in science, math, engineering:</p>

<p>Percentage of grads getting PhDs<br>
Academic field: All Engineering, Hard Science, and Math<br>
PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database<br>
Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads<br>
Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period </p>

<p>


1     34% California Institute of Technology<br>
2   ** 24% Harvey Mudd College **
3       16% Massachusetts Institute of Technology<br>
4   ** 10% Reed College    **
5       9%  Rice University 
6   ** 8%  Swarthmore College  **
7       8%  Princeton University<br>
8   ** 7%  Carleton College    **
9       7%  New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology<br>
10      7%  University of Chicago<br>
11      7%  Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute<br>
12      7%  Case Western Reserve University 
13      6%  Harvard University<br>
14      6%  Carnegie Mellon University<br>
15      6%  Johns Hopkins University<br>
16  ** 6%  Haverford College   **
17  ** 6%  Grinnell College    **
18      6%  Cornell University, All Campuses<br>
19  ** 5%  Kalamazoo College   **
20      5%  Stanford University 
21      5%  Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 
22      5%  Yale University 
23      5%  Cooper Union<br>
24  ** 5%  Oberlin College **
25  ** 5%  Lawrence University **
26  ** 5%  Bryn Mawr College   **
27  ** 5%  Williams College    **
28  ** 5%  Pomona College  **
29      4%  Colorado School of Mines<br>
30  ** 4%  Bowdoin College **
31  ** 4%  Earlham College **
32      4%  Brown University<br>
33      4%  University of Rochester 
34      4%  University of California-Berkeley<br>
35  ** 4%  Wabash College  **
36      4%  Duke University 
37      4%  Worcester Polytechnic Institute 
38  ** 4%  Amherst College **
39      4%  Stevens Institute of Technology 
40  ** 4%  St Olaf College **
41  ** 4%  Hendrix College **
42  ** 4%  Beloit College  **
43      4%  University of Missouri, Rolla<br>
44      4%  University of California-San Francisco<br>
45  ** 4%  Occidental College  **
46      4%  Alfred University, Main Campus<br>
47  ** 4%  Allegheny College   **
48  ** 4%  Whitman College **
49  ** 4%  College of Wooster  **
50      4%  SUNY College of Environmental Sci & Forestry<br>
51  ** 4%  Mount Holyoke College   **
52  ** 4%  Bates College   **
53      4%  College of William and Mary 
54  ** 4%  Knox College    **

</p>

<p>BTW, the 2006 Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded to an LAC graduate, John Mather (Swarthmore '68). Five Nobel Prizes have been awarded in the last five years to graduates of Amherst (2), Swarthmore (2), and Williams (1). That's pretty amazing when you figure that among them, they only graduate about 1250 students per year.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also from the science standpoint, I would probably send my kid to a decent state school (with a good graduate school) above a LAC if they know that they want to pursue science or engineering.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let's see what Nobel Prize winner and current head of the Howard Hughs Medical Institute had to say about undergrad science research at LACs versus universities:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegenews.org/prebuilt/daedalus/cech_article.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegenews.org/prebuilt/daedalus/cech_article.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Anyone who thinks graduates of top LACs are at a disadvantage in PhD research careers in science and math is sorely mistaken. Just the opposite. Graduates of these schools are massively over-represented at the highest levels of science. Why? Close mentoring relationships with professors focused on inspiring undergrad students is probably the main reason.</p>

<p>For example, in last year's graduating class at Swarthmore (346 graduates), five Bio majors indicated immediate plans for a PhD program (Johns Hopkins, Berkeley, Duke, UNC-CH, and U of Washington).</p>

<p>Two chem majors indicated immediate plans: one in a PhD program at Berkeley, the other enrolling at Harvard Law.</p>

<p>Three engineering majors indicated immediate plans: one for a MS program at Stanford, one a PhD at Columbia, one a PhD at MIT.</p>

<p>Two Physics majors indicated immediate plans: one PhD program at Cornell, the other a PhD program at Harvard.</p>

<p>"Also from the science standpoint, I would probably send my kid to a decent state school (with a good graduate school) above a LAC if they know that they want to pursue science or engineering."</p>

<p>Well, I think there are a few blatant exceptions: Harvey Mudd, Swarthmore, and perhaps Grinnell. These places have superior academics and at least rival the education of the best state schools, if not pop-tech schools. (caltech, mit, stanford, etc)</p>

<p>I'm a big fan of the small university. Dartmouth/Brown /W&M/Rice/ Wake Forest/Tufts. Not to big, not too small...just right.</p>

<p>a few random comments:</p>

<p>For engineering, you are better off at a university. LACs don't have adequate resources although they might provide enough basic coursework for someone who wants to pursue graduate study in engineering.</p>

<p>LACs generally lack business programs.</p>

<p>Cornell has several undergraduate colleges with different selectivity. The Arts and Sciences college is similar to an LAC and is about as selective as the most elite LACs. The College of Engineering is nearly as selective as MIT and Caltech. The overall SAT range at Cornell reflects the blend of colleges within Cornell. Furthermore, Cornell attracts a lot of international students in its engineering college and elsewhere who tend to have lower verbal SATs.</p>

<p>There was plenty of personal attention available at Cornell in engineering. I think the graduate assistants added to the personal attention. They were readily available at odd hours to help with assignments. Faculty were in their offices a lot and willing to chat. Cornell has more students...and it also has more faculty and graduate students. I had one teaching assistantship for four years and one research assistantship for three years, both concurrently in Applied and Engineering Physics. I did an internship at Goddard Space Flight Center in D.C. and an internship at Arecibo Radio Observatory in Puerto Rico. I received plenty of attention. But it was all business. Not much socializing for fun outside the classroom. </p>

<p>I think great students and faculty make a great school whether it is LAC or university.</p>

<p>interesteddad, I heard John Mather (this year's Nobel Physics winner) speak at U Maryland in November. He teaches at UMDCP part time and works full-time at nearby Goddard Space Flight Center. He was a brilliant and entertaining speaker. Didn't know he was a Swarthmore grad. Swarthmore must be a wonderful school to produce such outstanding graduates.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I heard John Mather (this year's Nobel Physics winner) speak at U Maryland in November. He teaches at UMDCP part time and works full-time at nearby Goddard Space Flight Center. He was a brilliant and entertaining speaker. Didn't know he was a Swarthmore grad. Swarthmore must be a wonderful school to produce such outstanding graduates.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In the interest of "truth in advertising", I'm sure that John Mather was an exceptionally brilliant Swarthmore student. He graduated with Highest Honors in Physics. Honors is a special program at Swarthmore. It is not GPA based. In fact, honors students were ungraded until fairly recently. The honors track consists of double-credit seminars in four specialized sub-fields plus a senior thesis or research project. Honors designations are determined by a panel of outside professors evaluating a senior thesis/research project, written exams, and oral exams in each of the four areas of specialization. </p>

<p>"Highest Honors" is a rare designation. On average, about a third of Swarthmore graduates complete the Honors track. About 9% of those receive a "Highest Honors" designation from the outside examiners, so figure the ten most brlliant students in the graduating class.</p>

<p>BTW, these honors seminars address the issue of "running out of courses" for particularly brilliant students. These seminars can be a professor and a couple of students trying to work their way through a recently published paper in their field.</p>

<p>Very interesting data and insight interesteddad.</p>

<p>i just want to thank whoever started this post/kept it going</p>

<p>as a future freshman who has applied to LAC's (amherst, haverford) and larger universities (umich, ucberkeley) and middle schools as well (duke, boston college) i really appreciate it and it has without a doubt affected my conclusions about each one :)</p>