<p>It is very unlikely that a private school will give you the sorts of detail about their college admissions that you suggest. They may not even know how many of their graduates got into various colleges because of hooks- yes the counsellors take this into account during the process, but they may not ever aggregate this information into data that would mean something to anyone outside the counselling office. They will know, but probably will not tell you, the proportion of students who applied to the most selective colleges who got in. </p>
<p>Overall, I suspect the effect on college admissions of elite private vs local public varies from kid to kid, and averages near zero. For every kid who ends up in the middle at an elite hs, who would have been at the top at a public there is a kid who takes advantage of the opportunity and builds a stronger resume at the elite than they could have at the public. Yes, there are lots of kids in the middle of the class at elites who would be val's at their local public, but you don't need to be val to get into a top college from an elite. If half the class goes to a top 20 college or university, then you can be well below the 50th percentile and still have top college options. Remember, not everyone who can go to an Ivy wants to. Some want an LAC, some want a service academy, some need merit or athletic scholarships, some want programs that are stronger at their state school...</p>
<p>At non-magnet public schools even being val still leaves all the most selective colleges as reaches, and many schools can go for years without anyone accepted to HYP. At a place like Exeter, several dozen accepted at HYP every year is routine. So you do not need to be the top student to be competitive.</p>
<p>As Laylah says, it is really more about the opportunities that are meaningful to the individual.</p>
<p>At our elite private, even those with C-C+ averages end up with 1300-1400+ (old scale SATs) and are accepted into very fine colleges...sometimes even HPY. It has been our experience that colleges know the school well and the rigorous work load. They know a B or a C at this school reflects a strong knowledge of subject matter. There is no grade inflation. They know even C students from this school will excel in college and even find it easier than high school</p>
<p>there are NO quotas for private schools. I am always very disappointed when I hear people say this. and it's untrue that only the top 10 from the private school get into the good schools.
momofaknight is exactly right.
i have friends who would be considered mediocre but who attended a prestigious private school. they are headed to upenn (the school SENT a dozen people there, not counting people who turned it down), cornell, stanford, berkeley, mit, harvard, etc. all this quota business is a LIE. ivy league schools took dozens of kids from this school.</p>
<p>No there is not a quota, but there is a limit for schools that want to build a deversified class. They could fill their classes with all private school kids (and they used to), but they don't now. So after Harvard takes 18 from Andover, the other 296 have to go somewhere else (this years numbers).</p>
<p>I go to an elite prep school, 40+k a year, and recently got the matriculation list</p>
<p>About a fifth go to Ivies. But a large portion go to other top schools, eg. MIT, NYU, UChicago, etc, and even more go to top LACs- Middlebury, Wellesly, etc.
So in the end about half the class goes to very selective schools. Then theres a quarter who gets into good but less hard to get in schools, like BU. This in the end 75% or so get into very respectable schools. The others either have deferred a year, or go to state universities, albiet decent ones. Only a handful, countable with the fingers of one hand, that goes to colleges not nationally ranked, like Stonehill. These people probably are the druggies and major screw-ups
And of course NOBODY goes to, god forbid, community college.</p>
<p>So basically as long as you keep your head above water, your destined for a top school</p>
<p>My experience in this town concurs with MOmofaKnight, in that the elite colleges are well aware that the public high school isn't nearly as rigorous as the private school that my kids are in. In fact, the state public gives an extra .5 ranking to grads of the private school because of its rigor when looking at potential students.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>There are no "middle of the class" kids at my kids' former elite private school who would be valedictorians at their public school. If anything, the top 3-4 students at the public school tend to be more impressive than anyone at the private school (this can vary year-to-year), both from a standpoint of pure intellect/achievement, and from the fact that they have often had to overcome tough odds (e.g., two kids with the same basic achievement level, the one who arrived here at age 10 and whose parents don't speak English and work menial jobs is more impressive than the child of a lawyer and a college professor who are both Ivy League alums). It is true, however, that bottom-of-the-class kids at the private school would probably be in the top third at the public school. </p></li>
<li><p>However, the same does not apply to most local non-magnet public schools (in a district with a number of magnets). Case in point: One of my kids knew the valedictorian in her year at what would have been her neighborhood public school. He got written up in the newspapers as "the best student in memory" at that school -- perfect academic record, leader of everything, huge positive force for the whole school. My kid says he is an absolutely great all-around guy who is indefatigable. He is attending an Ivy League school -- with a ton of remedial help, before and after matriculation, because his combined (old) SATs were under 1100, and his academic preparation was way short of the mark.</p></li>
<li><p>One of my cousins has a kid at an ultra-prestigious boarding school. That kid and my kid are both rising seniors with very similar (high) board scores, GPAs, etc. The boarding school kid (the son and grandson of Harvard College alums) and his parents have gotten the clear message that he should not bother applying to Harvard, because the school will not support him in that -- too much competition within his class (but it's OK for him to apply to Stanford). My son regards Harvard as a reach, of course, but he will count on enthusiastic support from his school. (The quality of the boarding school educational program, by the way, is breathtaking.)</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I agree with other posters, you shouldn't be caught up over the presige of the high school for the sake of college admissions.</p>
<p>Is the 'elite' private you are considering require your children boarding? Such as, are you closer to a Kokomo vs. Indianapolis distance or a Richmond, IN vs. Indianapolis distance? It may seem nice now to let them move away from home for high school, but how will you feel after they are away nearly everyday for an academic year? Though I'm not a parent (yet), I know that I would have serious reservations to sending my child away to a boarding school, no matter how good or enriching. </p>
<p>I believe you can achieve the same effect as an elite private school by outside enrichments at a normal private/public school. If you have the 17k to shell out for an academic year, why not save that and put it into summer enrichment activities? Maybe something like a service trip abroad or another humanitarian effort that will be seen as unique in the admissions committee's eyes? If you are bent on having it be academic in nature, there are hundreds of summer enrichment activities at colleges and likewise that can supplement your child's curriculum at a more local high school.</p>
<p>Personally, I think 17k per year for anything less than undergraduate education is overkill. I got an excellent baseline education at a locally (not nationally) great public school which propelled me into a decent undergraduate school (well...I guess not decent by many's standards on this board...but still great to many) and even better graduate schools (with full funding to boot).</p>
<p>If you look up the common data sets at pretty much any of the "elite colleges" you will see that there is approximately a 65/35 split between students that have graduated from public/ private high schools because there are more kids who apply to college overall come from public school.</p>
<p>Even within in the 35% that are coming from private school, I am willing to bet at a large number of those are coming from a small group of the usual suspects- St. Paul, Andover, Exeter, ect, followed by prestigious day schools in Ma, NYC, Ca, and DC with a few a few others from ohter states(and not in overwhelming numbers) thrown in for good measure.</p>
<p>i think i may have been sucked into the belief that if you pay more for an education and beggar yourself that you'll have bought your child the best education possible and that will ensure them a ticket to the 'big leagues' and life long prosperity and happiness. i'm going against the grain in my circle of friends ( all , admittedly, made while in this private school) who shake their heads at my foolishness and predict my child's exile into some bottom tier college due to my abandonment of the 'right' way. i sort of think they will be happy in a few years if he goes to a community college while theirs go off to the top 10!! also ( it probobly is only in this circle at this private school) there are other costs involved in attending (ie 'belonging') to the school. that includes annual giving ( names and amounts are published and circulated), the proper clothes/jewelry for mom, and the proper house ( i had many more friends when i moved up the house ladder), and of course the proper car. in fact i had people tell me that they didn't want to be my firend at first until they got to know me because of the car i drive !!! hard not to get sucked into this mode of thinking because most of us want to be accepted even at this late date!!! thanks for all your interesting comments...</p>
<p>Ask yourself what is the marginal value of the money you are going to spend? Because the difference isn't education vs no education, its how much are you willing to spend for the incremental improvement over what might be an equally good education or only slightly inferior education. </p>
<p>Case in point, living in Washington, DC we have the choice of may of the finest prep schools in the country and lots of really good private schools and we have the DC Public School system. We are huge belivers in public education and most people in our neighborhood send their kids to the public ememtary school and about half go to private schools for junior and senior high. Our S wanted to go with his friends to public school and we decided to do that for the first year to see how it went, knowing we could always hold him back a year and send him to a private school the next year.</p>
<p>As it turned out he did well and stayed on to go through high school in DC public schools as well. He received appointments to two US Service Academies and finished his first year in the top ten in his class at the Academy he chose to attend.</p>
<p>There is nothing that paying $20K a year would have improved upon that record. We were concerned at first how he would compete when he got into a mix of students from high schools with much better facilties and reputations. But he's done well. As a matter of fact, his ablity to deal and overcome difficult situations has been an unanticipated benefit of going to a school where everything wasn't perfect -- actually far from it.</p>
<p>I see a lot of parents sending their kids to private school simply because they can. That really isn't a great reason.</p>
<p>Finally, none of this is to say that if your child needs special attention or can't survive in a more complex social environment, by all means, the best place might be a private school. </p>
<p>But remember you are paying for a marginal difference. That margin may be large, but then again, if you have instilled the skills and take the time with your kids and their school, the margin may be very small.</p>
<p>"And of course NOBODY goes to, god forbid, community college.</p>
<p>So basically as long as you keep your head above water, your destined for a top school"</p>
<p>My response may be a tad left field but i find the whole thing interesting. I went to a top private and only myself (due to issues outside my control) and another girl left before completing our final year. The other girl who left wanted to become a hairdresser. I am sure many parents shuddered at the thought of their daughter leaving school to go to our equivalent of community college. However, this girl has been highly successful and has now won national awards for her work. She seems much more driven and content than many girls who went to university but now seem somewhat lost. I wonder if those parents still shudder at the thought of their daughters turning out like my fellow high school drop out :)</p>
<p>One other thing deserves mention. At least in the area where I live, drug/alcohol culture is practically universal at the elite private schools. By 11th grade, non-drinkers/stoners constitute no more than a single-digit percentage of the kids. The public school my kids attend(ed) is hardly drug- and alcohol-free, but there is a large body of kids -- probably the majority -- who really don't drink or do drugs at all, and drugs/alcohol play a relatively small part in the lives of many of the rest. So "substance free" does not mean "socially ostracized" at all.</p>
<p>On the whole, of course, the private school kids can handle the drugs and alcohol without too many problems -- they ARE privileged and smart, after all -- although there are definitely some issues popping up in the college careers of my older child's friends. But my 12th grader is upset to realize that all but two or three of his private school friends drink and smoke dope to a degree that makes him uncomfortable -- he thinks that they are not really in control of their usage, and that it's not fun to hang out with them anymore. (He's not straight-edge or anything. His best friend, however, is completely substance-free, due to an older sibling with serious issues, and that influences how my kid spends his time.) Drinking and drugs play no significant role at all in the lives of his public school friends, although only a few of them would say "never". Admittedly, this is the high-performance, academically ambitious group, but the equivalent kids at the private school are apparently drunk or stoned a lot.</p>
<p>And prep schools . . . I don't know what things are like now, but back in the day drug/alcohol use among kids I knew at the elite prep schools was much more serious and darker than the (extensive) use at the private day school I attended. Kids who lived at home had a lot more contact with adults and little kids than the boarding preppies did, and we had to moderate our behavior accordingly.</p>
<p>
[quote]
i just withdrew my 5th grader from a small private day school (17K year) near annapolis to place him in a respected local public school ( blue ribbon is that means anything) so he could take advantage of courses in organization skills and note taking that weren't covered in his private school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Note taking skills were by far the most important skill I learned in high school. It doesn't matter if you don't have super-advanced courses in high school, all you need is a mastery of basic writing structure, solid algebraic knowledge and good note taking skills to succeed in college. Good note taking skills not only help you focus on what you are learning at the time, but also increases your ability to remember facts later.</p>
<p>kayakmom what you wrote makes a lot of sense</p>
<p>unfortunately the public schools near where i live/lived are/were big, overcrowded, and didn't offer the extracurricular activities i like. i do agree that some public schools are better than some private schools. actually where i live now, there is one excellent private school and one excellent public magnet high school...the rest are mediocre public and private schools. incidentally the valedictorian of the public magnet is NOT going to any school in the top 50 because (s)he got rejected everywhere. the private school has a much better college acceptance outlook for ALL students.</p>
<p>I think this discussion is useful but fraught with potential misunderstanding. Labels like "public," "private, and "prep" don't tell the whole story or even the important bits of it. Parents assess their kids' social and academic needs, then try to assess the best-match schools. It's usually not about money -- if the family can't afford that top-tier prep, financial aid is available. If the neighborhood public is a good match, fine. If a child really needs to be living at home, then public or day school is best. For self-sufficient kids with extraordinary talent and motivation, aiming for one of the elite boarding schools is his/her best chance for a rich, varied education and association with teachers/students who care about the life of the mind. Facilities at top preps are simply unmatched elsewhere. Do preppies abuse drugs and alcohol -- yes, many do, but they'll be booted if caught. Public high schools have no jurisdiction outside of school, and substance abuse is not their responsibility, so it falls to parents. Some parents care and provide guidance, some don't.
I've had two sons graduate top preps in New England (on scholarship) and now a third is entering a much-more-modest but well-staffed regional prep. I have every confidence that the faculty at #3's school will provide the same care I would myself, and of course it's handy that faculty are very present on campus 24/7. Will my kid test the limits? Sure. Are the professionals at his school going to be there for him? Yup.</p>
<p>I think LFWB Dad only addresses half of the issue. Often it is more than the marginal difference you are paying for. Parents are paying for atteniton they either can't or don't want to give themselves. </p>
<p>Its great that LFWB Dad was able to spend the time nurturing his S through the worst public school system in America, but what about the parents who are running companies or saving the world for their kids and can pay for the attention the kids need. That is the other side of why people pay for these schools, not just because they can. They can and they know these schools will do a better job than they would themselves as parents. Its just like hiring a gardner to look after one's lawn. The gardeners do a better job and its worth the price.</p>
<p>It is all economics, but its not all marginal value.</p>
<p>I went to an "elite" prep school and one of the "top" Ivies. My children go and went to a public high school whose educational quality is at least equal to my old school but I am still wired into the prep school network. A public school with 1700 kids has a wider range of abilities, different commitments to education, etc. but at many schools it's very possible to get a great education. And I can guarantee you, it is very possible to get a lousy education at a very expensive prep school. Even today, some of the kids are dumped there or are in because the parents come across with the dough. The number of problems are fewer, but probably only because the number of students is also less. The proportion is, I would hazard, roughly the same.</p>
<p>It helps a little to come from a name school. That help has diminished recently for several reasons: commitments to diversity from not only 50 states but many countries, Title IX's emphasis on athlete admissions, commitments to racial diversity and the vast increase in the number of applications. In days of yore, it was easier to get in from a prep school in part because fewer people applied. </p>
<p>I remain glad I went to my prep school because otherwise I might have imploded. I was able to spend those formative years in a setting of extreme beauty, for which I'm grateful. The setting has affected me through the years more than the education.</p>
<p>Lergnom - your comments about setting are something I never see written about, but that have been important to me and when I look back on my public school education one of the things I am grateful for, strangely, is the long bus ride through rural New England. At the time I just thought of it as a long bus ride, but looking out the window, driving past woods, fields, stone walls farmhouses and barns gave me a visual memory book that define beauty and serenity for me. Sounds very corny, but when I drive around high density look alike developments, I wonder where those children find natural beauty. </p>
<p>I also think students visiting colleges underestimate, sometimes, the power of the setting. It's four years of your life, and you have the opportunity to spend it in some beautiful locations (definitions of beauty will of course vary). After graduation, opportunities and jobs too often dictate where we live.</p>