@websensation What? What sort of solution is that? By this logic, poor students too should attend community colleges and honours college affordable by merit and everyone who can’t afford (poor, middle or upper middle) should leave elite private institutions for “rightful” wealthy payers. That’s how it works for K-12.
@Creekland I was one of those kids from a poor family or at least lower middle class back in the early 90s and from my parents perspective they did have it made. My 4 year cost was just shy of $80K at a need based aid school. I walked out with $14K in loans. My folks did not have to contribute anything. What the school thought my folks should pay I made up with scholarships that were paid directly to me instead of the school, which was good because the school would have just reduced my aid.
I met my wife at the school. She was similar to me, but her Dad made more money than my parents. Although it wasn’t that much. She walked out with about $55-60K in loans. We joke that when we found each other that we were some of the poorest kids on campus.
The interesting aspect was that during our 20s we were paying off the loans. We waited to have kids. Shortly after D19 was born we decided my wife would stay home. She stayed totally out of the workforce for 9 years. When she came back she is only making about 30% of what she could be making. The problem is her salary is on the fafsa now and we didn’t have it for a long time. So we didn’t save as much as we probably should have.
We find it ironic that our D19 would be saddled with so much debt if she went to our school. We would have been better off it my wife worked those 9 years and quit now.
I don’t want to have this come off as complaining. I would never trade the security of my children when they were young for my wife working and making more money. I actually think the reason my D19 is a high stats kid is partly because my wife was home with her for all those years.
I do feel lucky. See I have a co-worker that has a high stats D19 as well. We talk about how if the kids were more average how the merit would almost be totally out of the question. Then what would we do.
I just feel that the elites(need based aid) schools don’t have a normal representation of the general population. They skew to the edges of the bell curve.
The fact is if you cannot afford your EFC you can’t afford it. It does not matter if it’s 70K or 5K. Elite schools cater those who can pay what they say they can pay. Or who can’t and do it anyway. It is absolutely true that lower income brackets are FAR under represented at these schools. And it’s not coincidence that representation goes up by income level. If they suddenly started representing all income brackets in proportion the FA house of cards at these schools would likely start to crumble.
A couple years ago we contracted a financial planner to fine tooth our finances and help set us up toward college for 2 and retirement. He recommended we look at colleges in the 15-20K range to set us up well to pay cash for both kids and allow us to maintain our current lifestyle. Our lifestyle includes a hundred year old 3 bedroom 1800 sq ft urban house that needs work, Kia vehicles, maybe a road trip once a year and rare occasional plane vacation. Our luxury items are music lessons and a vegetable CSA. I am not complaining, I love our life. But just because your EFC says you are full pay does not mean you can or should. There is very little data used to determine EFC. And yes, both my kids have had 529 plans since birth. Tuition rates have FAR outpaced inflation and wage increases. And due to one of my kids, I really needed to be at home for a while. Some people are borrowing huge funds for elite schools and a financial adviser would strongly recommend against. Even with the health care situation in this country many of us are a health care crises away from bankruptcy and are paying hand over fist to have basic coverage.
That said telling my 34 ACT, 4.0 quirky intellectual kid he can only look at directional state schools is not going to work out either. I actually think he’s at much higher risk of dropping out at a school where he feel like he doesn’t have a peer group. Our flagship average ACT around 29 with an honors college option (ACT 31-34) and that is about 30K. That is the safety school. All other applications are targeted to schools that could offer significant merit. He’s applying to music programs that sometimes will offer merit for musicians when they won’t for other students. It’s practically a full time job figuring all this out though and not every family has the band width to walk their kid through a very complicated application process step by step. My kid is plenty privileged. It gets old to hear that we CAN afford an elite school we just won’t. Nope - sorry, you actually know nothing about our finances. We cannot responsibly afford it. Society as a whole pays when people default on loans or aren’t prepared for retirement or go into ERs for health care without coverage with no ability to pay.
“Query: Does the definition of “elite” cover Ohio State where OOS tuition and fees exceed $40,000?”
Depends on who you ask. Personally, I wouldn’t group Ohio State with the elite colleges no matter what the cost. On the other hand, as an example I might include UMich with the elites. UMich’s OOS total COA is somewhere around $65k/year.
It depends a lot on the individual school. Generally, private schools tend to favor either poor or wealthy families. Wealthy families can afford to pay full tuition. Poor families get the best financial aid, but financial aid money is limited. That leaves a big middle-class donut hole. It’s a completely outdated model. The question is why they’re charging that kind of tuition in the first place. If the school simply expands their capacity, they can charge much lower tuition rates.
@milee30 I would consider ‘elite’ to be schools that give no merit scholarships. Meaning all aid is only need-based.
@AlmostThere2018 - there are no dips in the Barnard data. Students who come from families that make above the 90th percentile are more represented, students who come from families that make below the 80% percentile are less represented.
You can look at the FAFSA EFC to see how it is computed and you can see from there how they expect you to pay for your EFC. Your EFC will never rise at a higher rate than your income and assets, so it does usually confuse me when people talk about donut-hole families. One advantage that poor people have is that they know how to survive on less money.
@warbrain – That’s my point, exactly. Every decile should be equal to 10% representation (The wonder of statistics!) so if students between 80th and 90th percentile are less than 10% of total students then that’s a dip (less than expected representation) which could indicate price sensitivity associated with fin aid offered vs. what they are actually able/willing to pay. Basically, families in that range taking other options over the elites – be it merit or public.
But we’d really need to see representation at every decile and a look across elites to get a full picture.
As noted in many other posts here, they skew only to the upper edge. Those at the lower edge of the bell curve of parental income are extremely underrepresented. While they may get full aid, very few are admitted because (a) they more likely face barriers and limitations to achievement, (b) elite colleges use admission criteria that skew toward the upper edge (legacy, recruited athletes in upper income sports, etc.), and (c) those financially needy students with uncooperative divorced parents are ineligible for financial aid at most of the elite colleges.
@gpo613 That would rule out at least 10 out of top 25 colleges. There are many who give partial merit.
Agree with circuitrider - most of the OOS tuition at mid-tier universities like Ohio State, U of MN, UMass - especially those in East, Midwest and West are ridiculous! why would someone choose to be in a class of 200-300 and pay almost same fees as private university with a class of 50-75?
It feels they really do Not want anyone from outside the state! It makes more sense from ROI point of view to send our kids to the best state school in state for Undergrad or even private university over sending to a mid-tier public school out of state.
There may be few exceptions such as UCal Berkeley, U of Michigan, Georgia Tech (Eng.) or may be some specific programs in certain public schools that are highly ranked. Also, some schools in the south have similar reputation but are cheaper when compared to these overpriced mid-tier schools in North!
Saying “there are no dips in the Barnard data” is beside the point. @AlmostThere2018’s original anecdote from the student at Barnard was “She said almost everyone she met there was either full pay or full / very significant financial aid”.
That’s true according to the stats provided by @calmom that “61% of the student body = full pay” and
the “Average financial aid package: $50.2K” out of a “COA of $72.3K for students living on campus”.
Looking at the income percentiles that implies (roughly since assets are not necessarily aligned with income) that most of the bottom 80% by income (35% of students) are getting very significant financial aid (well over half of the COA), and most of the top 20% by income (65% of students) are full pay. Only the 9% of students in the second income decile (10%-20%) and a few just above or below that range (perhaps 15% of students in total) are likely to be paying most but not all of the cost of attendance.
@data10 writes
Around 25% of each class comes from Independent day schools and boarding schools ( I googled for Yale and Princeton, but I couldn’t readily get Harvard’s breakdown ) So that would account for the skewing toward very high income brackets.
Despite their constant propaganda about diversity etc, HYP and others of that ilk are still an old boys’ network with a few crumbs thrown to the masses .They need to plant their money trees for future endowments.
@ucbalumnus If I had access to all the stats one stat that I would be interested in looking at is let’s take the 50-60K students that have a 34 ACT or higher and equivalent on SAT each year. Then let’s break them down into income levels. For sure the distribution of family incomes for those kids won’t mirror the general population of family income. It will skew higher for sure. Then we can look at where those 50-60K kids end up.
I contend that at the elite schools you will have a ton of high income(I mean high) students and a decent percentage of low income students. For example there might only be 5K of students who’s family falls in the bottom quintile and maybe 2.5K of them end up at the elite schools. That would be 50%. Just a guess. I am sure the middle class and upper middle class won’t have a high percentage of kids in the elite schools.
Basically I contend that the Elite schools don’t have a normal distribution of low income students compared to the general population because the amount of qualified candidates don’t mirror the general population.
gpo613- Half of the bottom quintile income/ high scoring kids end up at elite schools? Do you know ANYTHING about bottom quintile families? It’s a miracle in some places if these kids make it to community college. Many end up enlisting in the armed services and get a degree later in life. A TINY percentage end up at elite schools. Most work full time to support their families and take college one class at a time- at the closest public U they can commute to with the local bus system.
You can be contending all you want but the reality is quite different. Spend some time in rural Oklahoma or Camden/Newark NJ (urban) and see what these HS kids deal with before you post such ridiculous contentions.
Take a look at the following financial aid comparisons among the “elite” HYPS (unfortunately, Harvard’s info isn’t as detailed as the rest):
HYPS Financial Aid Statements Based on the Class of 2021 Distribution
HARVARD: "Aid is completely need-based and considers many factors, such as your family’s income, assets, size, and unusual expenses. Families at all income levels who have significant assets are asked to pay more than those in less fortunate circumstances. Home equity and retirement assets are not considered in our assessment of financial need.
Requires no contribution from families with gross annual incomes below $65,000. About 20% of our families have no parent contribution.
Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances.
There are several hundred families earning more than $200,000 who are receiving scholarship aid based on extenuating financial circumstances.
YALE: "Yale calculates the Expected Family Contribution through a holistic review process. As part of this process, Yale use a formula that considers the following:
*Parents’ income
*Parents’ assets (cash, savings, home equity, other real estate and investments)
*Family size
*Number of children attending college
*Student’s expected income from summer and term-time jobs
*Student’s assets (cash, savings, trusts, and other investments)"
Median net cost for families with gross annual income below $65,000 is $4,450 and 98% in this income group qualified for aid.
Median net cost for families with gross annual income between $65,000 to $100,000 is $6,488 and 99% in this income group qualified for aid.
Between $100,000 to $150,000 is $15,352 with 96% qualifying.
Between $150,000 to $200,000 is $29,953 with 88% qualifying.
Between $200,000 to $250,000 is $43,015 with 64% qualifying.
Greater than $250,000 is $50,957 with 23% qualifying. (most who qualify have multiple children in college)
PRINCETON: "Your grant may vary from the averages based on the Financial Aid Office’s individual evaluation of your family’s resources, including assets other than the family home or retirement funds.
Based on Tuition = $49,450 Residential college fee = $890
Room and board = $16,360 Total = $66,700"
Requires no contribution from families with gross annual incomes below $65,000 and 100% in this income families qualified with the average grant of $67,350. Full tuition, college fee, room + board covered.
100% of families with income between $65,000-85,000 qualified with the average grant of $62,865, covering full tuition, college fee, 76% room + board.
100% of families between $85,000–100,000 qualified with the average grant of $59,140, covering full tuition, college fee, 54% room + board.
100% of families between $100,000–120,000 qualified with the average grant of $55,540, covering full tuition, college fee, 32% room + board
100% of families between $120,000–140,000 with grant of $53,180, covering full tuition, college fee, 17% room + board
100% of families between $140,000–160,000 with grant of $50,000, covering full tuition.
100% of families between $160,000–180,000 with grant of $43,900, covering 89% tuition.
91% of families between $180,000–200,000 with grant of $38,810, covering 78% tuition.
83% of families between $200,000-250,000 with grant of $29,900, covering 60% tuition.
33% of families above $250,000 (most who qualify have 2 children in college) with grant of $22,880, covering 46% tuition.
STANFORD: “Eligibility for Stanford Scholarship funds is based not only on family income level, but also on the size of the family, number of family members in college and family assets among other factors. This explains why not every applicant at a particular income level may qualify for assistance.”
99% of families with gross annual income less than $65,000: net cost = $4,832
99% of families with income between $65,000 – 95,000: net cost = $7,824
100% of families between $95,000 – 125,000: net cost = $16,039
99% of families between $125 – 155,000: net cost = $26,816
94% of families between $155,000 – 185,000: net cost = $31,589
84% of families between $185,000 – 215,000: net cost = $41,911
71% of families between $215,000 – 245,000: net cost = $50,401 **
34% of families of income greater than $245,000: net cost = $46,568 **
** *most who qualify have 2 (or more) children in college
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cpa.asp
See Figure 3. The trend for low income students attending college is rising rapidly while middle and high income is flat. The elites are telling us that they are increasing first gen access. Likely true.
Everything can not be fixed in one generation. Grandparents did not all finish HS, parents attended college part time while working, my generation went away to school with aid and then delayed having children, saved, saved, saved and some of our high stats kids attend elite schools at full pay. We are talking about a full century of hard work and prioritizing education, not an overnight transformation.
Guess what? When I get a call home concerned that the very nice roommate with 0 EFC spent all the school given semester stipend on a new cell phone, I respond “Are you glad that we taught you to responsibly handle the money you earned that needs to last until next summer?” and. “You may want to save some meal swipes for your roommate.”
Here’s the “Economic Diversity Among the Top 25 National Universities”
“Pell Grant percentages were calculated using 2016-2017 data on the number of Pell Grant recipients at each school collected directly by U.S. News in spring 2018”
Among HYPS, adding to the earlier post, the percentage of Pell grant qualified students has all increased in their Class of 2022 (except Stanford whose data for the class of 2022 I couldn’t find). Their breakdown for the percentage of Pell grant qualified students in the Class of 2022:
Harvard: 19.3% (from 16% in 2016-17 data)
Yale: 20% (from 15%)
Princeton: 20% (from 16%)
Stanford: ?? (from 15%)
However, that figure is for all two and four year college enrollment. Elites are a tiny portion of the overall enrollment, so whatever the elites do washes out in the noise of this figure.
There are several factors in to why Harvard (and similar) skews toward the high end of income distribution, even though it is more affordable that in state public options for typical middle class families, ignoring non-need scholarships. One factor that has not been discussed much is favoring groups that have a large portion of high income students. One example is legacies. The lawsuit indicates that legacies get a large boost, greater than the boost associated with being Hispanic or low income, and Harvard’s freshman survey indicates that 46% of legacies reported having incomes of $500k or greater. An even larger boost was associated with Dean/Director’s special interest list, who I expect average even higher incomes than legacies. A similar statement could be made about Z-list. Harvard gives a large boost to recruited athletes in preppy, less popular sports that are associated with high income.
Societal culture and environment also contributes. High achieving kids from wealthy families are far more likely to want to go to Harvard than high achieving kids from not wealthy families. One study (see https://www.nber.org/papers/w18586 ) found that most lower income high achieving kids do not apply to any selective colleges, even though they would have lower cost than local options after FA. Or as you touched on, kids/families who attend wealthy private HSs are more likely to want to attend similar wealthy private colleges. While kids/families who attended typical public HSs are more likely to want to attend more similar public colleges.
As others have touched on, wealthy families also tend to have various advantages in other areas that increase chance of acceptance.