Elite Schools

Parents Forum
101

Is joining a country club or a gym conspicuous consumption when you can get your workout done by raking leaves and shoveling snow? Is walking in to work carrying a $4 latte conspicuous consumption when you can make your own drip coffee at home (from really nice beans)for 30 cents a cup?

Elliemom- I agree with much of what you say. But one person’s conspicuous consumption is another person’s “can’t live without”.

There are no guarantees in life. None. Your kid can head off to Princeton and flunk out junior year because she never went to class, just like she can flunk out of Rowan, or FDU, or Kutztown, or any one of a number of cheaper options in your region. And your kid can head off to Kutztown and become a Rhodes scholar or win a Fulbright. But this is not new. I know kids from my High School who have confounded expectations- in both directions. The slacker who became a psychiatrist, winning awards and accolades left and right, collaborating on research and working in a major academic medical center. He barely made it through HS. The woman who graduated Phi Beta Kappa from one of the HYP’s and is a substitute teacher in a meh school system (couldn’t get hired to be a sub in the district where she was raised…)

These people are in their 60’s now. So this is not new. No guarantees. What I think IS new is people bashing others for choices they make. I never heard that growing up. Kids kept their SAT scores private; nobody knew where you were applying until May when everyone talked about where they were going. Certainly, knowing guys a few years ahead of me in HS who had terrible lottery numbers and got drafted kept things on an even keel. Which is worse- not getting in to Johns Hopkins and having to “settle” for Maryland, or being shipped off to Viet Nam to fight a war which the American people were already tired of and did not support? Maybe that kept the nastiness at bay.

102

Lots of pretty wildly inaccurate stereotyping of “big state schools” here. I went to one (Michigan) as an undergrad. Later went to two Ivies for grad school, then taught for some years at a third. I did attend a lot of football games at Michigan and I’m still a big Wolverines football fan—it’s just part of the culture. But then, as another poster noted in singing Stanford’s praises, football is big there, too. In contrast, that poster lamented his own “big state school” alma mater as utterly lacking in “school spirit,” meaning in part (I infer from the context) that no one cared about football.

I didn’t attend many beer parties at Michigan; I just wasn’t into that scene, though they certainly were there for anyone who wanted them. But there were just as many beer parties at the Ivies I attended, and probably more such parties per capita at the elite LACs my daughters attended.

As for intellectual, artistic, and politically engaging events, I would say such events were of a similar caliber at Michigan and at the Ivies, except that there were many more of them, and a greater variety to choose from, at Michigan owing to its much greater size. And as for political engagement, Michigan wins that comparison hands down. I grew more intellectually, socially, culturally, politically, in my years at Michigan than in any other period of my life, including my time at Ivies. I’m sure it was partly a function of age—18 to 21 are probably huge growth years for anyone. But my time at Michigan opened up whole new worlds for me, and it’s an experience I wouldn’t trade for anything. I not only got a quality undergraduate education, but I also gained a much richer personal appreciation for the arts, literature, philosophy, history, social theory, languages and cultures, and so much more—things that continue to define me to this day—along with a lifelong love of learning not only for its instrumental value but simply for the sake of learning what can be learned, and catching a glimpse of the outer frontiers of present-day human knowledge and pondering what might lie beyond.

Could I have had a similar experience elsewhere? Sure, probably, and at least to some extent. But I didn’t need to look elsewhere because I could attend my own state’s public flagship for what was then a pittance, which is about what my family could afford. And for the record, I’m not in the camp that says it doesn’t matter where you go to college. Yes, a talented and motivated student can have a successful career coming from almost any school, but as for the less tangible and more personal values of a college education, I do think there are real differences in quality, breadth, and depth. But drawing the line at public v. private or large v. small is just too simplistic, and just plain wrong. Our best public universities are every bit the towering citadels of learning that our best private research universities and liberal arts colleges are.

103

Several years ago we had a numbering system for topics/conversations that have been discussed repeatedly, so rather than repeat, we’d simply type the number. Haven’t looked for that thread, but would guess the “are the elites worth it?” And “each person decided what to spend their money on” are probably #1 and 2. Just sayin’.

104

The second statement is not a corollary of the first one, because “X is necessary for Y” (or “if Y, then X”) does not imply “X is sufficient for Y” (or “if X, then Y”).

105

Then would #3 be “$250,000+ income ‘middle class’ family unable to save for college while complaining about taxes and high cost of living”?

106

The numbering was for the responses, IIRC. We had a list of canned responses to the repetitive topics and would just call out the responses by number :wink:

107

@bclintonk I certainly was meaning no disrespect to a school like Michigan (which I consider an “elite” :slight_smile: ). I was speaking from the experience of my brother, who went to a different flagship school (the state I will not name to avoid another argument) where the freshman seemed to major in beer, my brother included. Or my HS boyfriend who went to a different flagship school, who was like a fish out of water with few “like” students. Each of them lamented that they did not go to a school “like mine.” I was too flip with my characterization of “big state school.” Apologies.

108

We could start a new list. It was lot of fun :slight_smile: We could have one list for questions/topics and a separate one for responses.

109

The value of higher education primarily comes from three sources:

  1. the professors you interact with;
  2. the fellow students you interact with; and
  3. the opportunities you are given outside of classrooms

The elite schools do add more values in all these three areas. However, if you’re not a genius coming in, elite schools won’t turn you into one. You success later in life will be mostly determined by your innate ability and your own efforts, even though an elite education helps.

110

Uh Oh! 1NJparent put in a numbering system for a different purpose!

111

Well, yes. Luxury goods, especially those that are used as a “badge” of ability to pay. that are purchased when less-expensive alternatives would fulfill the function are examples of conspicuous consumption. A country club is a prototypical example of that. A cup of coffee not so much because there is no badge association. There’s nothing wrong with that. We all do it. In fact, conspicuous consumption helps to fuel the economy. It’s not a pejorative term, only one that recognizes that when we make financial decisions, symbolic utility as well as pure functionality figure into our definition of “worth.” I used the term because the symbolic associations with “elites” that transcend the pure functionality seem to fit Veblen’s original definition pretty well. Elizabeth Currid-Halkett’s recent book specifically mentions spending on education as a status-signal for the aspirational class, which is what started me thinking about it in the first place. I do think that spending $250K on an elite education for one’s offspring says something different than spending $250K on a Bentley…but it clearly does say something. (And that’s okay. In fact, the former is much more in keeping with my own value structure than the later is.)

I was actually using the general dictionary definition of corollary, “something that incidentally or naturally accompanies or parallels” (from Merriam-Webster) rather than the logic/mathematical proof formulation. So, based on that use, I think it’s appropriate. But, then again, I’m a sociologist not a logician. :wink:

112

I am absolutely stunned - Senior Security Architect - Must Have Ivy League Education
https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Senior%20Security%20Architect&l=New%20York%2C%20NY&vjk=ab5b3ae7ccb721b9

113

Re: #111

Management consulting in the finance industry… both the usual examples of college-elitist preferences in hiring.

114

This looks like a regular technology position with a financial company, not consulting. I guess they have too many Ivy graduates who will not take advice from a non-Ivy graduate

115

The job ad refers to a “Financial Services Client” (emphasis added). Also, if you look up the named employer, you will find that it is a consulting company.