Elite Science Fairs

<p>As a high schooler involved in research, I totally agree with differential. For one thing, it's really not that difficult to tell how involved a student was in their "research" by simply asking them some basic questions about it. </p>

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At young ages, I think it is more important for kids to be focusing on basic fundamentals of science than advanced research. They should be really learning about things a lot less sophisticated but in greater depth. That will result in greater creativity later on in life. Lets not forget that many great scientific innovators in the American tradition weren't tremendously advanced in school. Some were even poor students. They should be learning about the abstract principles that govern life much more so that they have greater creativity later on in life. Such specific research at high school age--no matter how knowledgeable a student is, will cause tunnel vision. A lot of great American innovations did not come from exceptionally prolific students. People always need to have purpose and grounding for putting so much effort into such a precise medium like getting all As and 5s in 7 AP classes.

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<p>I really, really, REALLY disagree with this. Here's a few reasons:
1. "At young ages, I think it is more important for kids to be focusing on basic fundamentals of science than advanced research." I will only agree with this if "young ages" is defined to be "under 15 or 16." I think after that point, students have reached the level of maturity to be able to consider problems on their own and begin exploring for their own research.
2. "They should be really learning about things a lot less sophisticated but in greater depth." In many subjects, that's difficult to do, period. In mathematics, analysis classes typically taken by college freshmen and sophomores go back and redo all of calculus from a much more theoretical perspective. Doing analysis in the first place would, among other things, a) lose you students who dislike theory, a common problem even among math majors, and b) may well overwhelm even smart students. Sophistication and depth are two terms with a lot of overlap. Interestingly enough, I feel like I should point out that in mathematics, going into ANY subject with lots of depth can get you to the cutting edge of research scarily quickly, especially in up-and-coming fields.
3. "Some were even poor students. They should be learning about the abstract principles that govern life much more so that they have greater creativity later on in life." This is, er, misdirected at best. Good researchers, in my experience, often paid as much attention in classes unrelated to their fields of interest as to their favorite subject. Going into more depth and breadth in any subject tends to give students greater perspective, period. That's been my experience throughout life -- I gain perspective from teachers in ANY subject that really go deep and broad.
4. "By the time a student is 16 or 17, that allows for that 10 year time period for them to really nail it on the head if they are to do something big. That is the time when they should have the chance to do some research in addition to mastering the fundamentals." This is...ridiculous. People who start doing research at a young age gain perspective, a feel for their subject, depth, and creativity, and it stays with them the rest of their lives.
5. "Such specific research at high school age--no matter how knowledgeable a student is, will cause tunnel vision." This is absolutely ridiculous. The people I know who do intensely focused research are also the people I know who can instantly and seamlessly transition from mathematical discussions to political debates to abstract philosophical discussions, and are the best-grounded people I know. The people I know who don't do such research are much less sure about what they'll do in the world, worried about their futures, unsure of what to expect, and less interested in branching out to any field at all.
6. "People always need to have purpose and grounding for putting so much effort into such a precise medium like getting all As and 5s in 7 AP classes." This is the most ridiculous statement of all. You clearly haven't been reading College Confidential at ALL to realize that these students are, as often as not, only doing these things to satisfy their parents' desire to maximize their sons' and daughters' statistical profiles, because the parents don't know any other way to impress colleges. I can think of fifteen or twenty students I know off the top of my head who "get all As and 5s in 7 AP classes" and couldn't care less about their futures, their classes, or their own interests.</p>

<p>Perhaps I'm a bit biased due to the fact that I'm a high school researcher, in a field that's relatively new and wide open, that can truly (and literally, in my case) be done in one's backyard, and I'm doing truly original research. I know a lot of people in the same boat. In some areas, especially biology and physics, it IS a whole lot more difficult to get original research that is truly yours, especially in one's backyard -- often you can only hop on to an existing research project at a research institution and hope to be able to pass it off as largely your own. That said, new results in biology and physics can be the result of simple luck -- a friend of mine accidentally created a new and interesting mutation in his (nonhuman) research subjects, and the lab was able to reconstruct his results from his research journal. He got full credit for that. Engineering is a bit trickier, but of all subjects offers perhaps the most room for creativity. Computer science research depends largely on what you're doing and how much experience you have -- after learning to program at a young age, which many people do, you can begin looking at the more abstract concepts of computer science, and working on the prototypical problem of computer science, "Is there a neat/ingenious/innovative way to attack this particular problem? How could that be implemented? Is its efficiency comparable to or better than known algorithms for the problem?" Personally, I think anything more theoretical than that in computer science (e.g. figuring out how to show you CAN'T attack a problem any faster than some rate) is mathematics rather than computer science. Mathematics is wholly dependent on what subfield you're working in -- some fields require little more than high school algebra, rudimentary combinatorics, and a flexible and intelligent mind, while others require concerted effort and study long enough to be able to glance over very complicated details. (That isn't to say that you should skip over such details in mathematical research, rather, that you must study until those details become natural.)</p>

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Personally, I think anything more theoretical than that in computer science (e.g. figuring out how to show you CAN'T attack a problem any faster than some rate) is mathematics rather than computer science.

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<p>This is a branch of computer science called Theoretical Computer Science. If you want to see where CS formally branches off from Mathematics (in that from that point it is referred to as CS instead of Mathematics), read the works of Church and Turing. Also big parts of CS that are way more complex than what you mentioned include compiler theory, study of non-traditional computer architectures (non-von Neumann), non determistic computing, computer algebra systems, artificial intelligence, etc.</p>

<p>The one problem that kinda bugs me is that high school kids will study some basic programming, learn some algorithms, study some data structures, learn how to use a few libraries, and write a couple cool applications, and then declare they have a good idea what computer science is. I've spent nearly 8 years programming, taking all sorts of CS courses, reading original CS papers, and I have to say, I STILL DON"T KNOW WHAT COMPUTER SCIENCE IS!!! Sure you can throw some fancy definitions from wikipedia. But in general academics hold a vague-ish definition (you can tell when you see something if it's CS or not, but it's not easy to declare the boundaries).</p>

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"By the time a student is 16 or 17, that allows for that 10 year time period for them to really nail it on the head if they are to do something big. That is the time when they should have the chance to do some research in addition to mastering the fundamentals." This is...ridiculous. People who start doing research at a young age gain perspective, a feel for their subject, depth, and creativity, and it stays with them the rest of their lives.

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<p>I believe learn2think was referring to this article: <a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/hamming.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.paulgraham.com/hamming.html&lt;/a>, in which Hamilton says "The title of my talk is, ``You and Your Research.'' It is not about managing research, it is about how you individually do your research. I could give a talk on the other subject-- but it's not, it's about you. I'm not talking about ordinary run-of-the-mill research; I'm talking about great research. And for the sake of describing great research I'll occasionally say Nobel-Prize type of work. It doesn't have to gain the Nobel Prize, but I mean those kinds of things which we perceive are significant things. Relativity, if you want, Shannon's information theory, any number of outstanding theories-- that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
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Age is another factor which the physicists particularly worry about. They always are saying that you have got to do it when you are young or you will never do it. Einstein did things very early, and all the quantum mechanic fellows were disgustingly young when they did their best work. Most mathematicians, theoretical physicists, and astrophysicists do what we consider their best work when they are young. It is not that they don't do good work in their old age but what we value most is often what they did early. On the other hand, in music, politics and literature, often what we consider their best work was done late. I don't know how whatever field you are in fits this scale, but age has some effect."</p>

<p>This argument isn't so much based on logical evidence, but more so empirical evidence. And that's equally as strong.</p>

<p>The original question is whether "Elite Science Fairs" will save American Science. As a student whose gone to ISEF twice, and was a national finalist in the Siemens Competition, I'm saying no it won't. There are two parts to this:</p>

<p>A) The kids who go to the very final rounds of this competition already know what they are doing. They've decided that they are going into science/eng or not (well not necessarily what exact field, but they know already whether they'll do something science/eng/math/tech). So by pumping in around a 150-200 elite science fair winners into college, you really aren't doing much at all, because these competitions have existed for a long time to begin with (generally 50 years).</p>

<p>B) These competitions do not get much publicity / popularity. I'm not talking about articles on CNN about the winners, etc. I'm talking about the majority of HS students interested in math / science hearing about them. Why don't they get popular? They are the same age! It's easy to idolize someone much older than you. It's equally hard to idolize someone the same age as you. So kids aren't going into science/math because they hear about these elite science fairs. They are going because they like science/math. And lets not forget that the press reports describing the kids projects are **** poor. Sure for the average person walking a block and quickly reading the paper, it's fine. But if a student really wants much more information? Specifics? I'm not saying put up the full research paper, but after the competition, give the students a couple pages to explain their project with more detail.</p>

<p>This is an interesting discussion. My son is involved in a research project right now at a teaching hospital. Each year he tried to get involved earlier but could not as the hospital, indeed none of the hospitals, accepted high school students to "volunteer" or participate in any hospital based research. There were options for college students but not high school students. My son ultimately found a way and is working with a research problem identified by a Ph.D. and with data that would not be available to him in any other setting. Thus, he is not doing original research but learning to do research in a field that interests him - he is really excited and this confirms that he wants to do research. It's not that easy to get one's foot in the door for some things and clearly kids have no way of knowing if they are interested in research if they have no exposure! I see the difference with math/CS and understand the years of knowledge that must be built before one can have an original research project. But, in some fields of interest, it would be very, very difficult for a high school student to have access to equipment and even knowledge of the issues at hand (I guess I am thinking about healthcare mostly). I personally think my son was very lucky to be "allowed" to participate in a research project as a member of the team. It seems that high schools and perhaps pertinent industries milght help by making access a little easier for high school students if they really want kids to get excited and moving in this direction. OTOH, as someone who works in healthcare - few high school students would be adequately prepared to do anything but "learn" and take up the main researcher's time and few researchers would have the time to teach them. Access probably varies with location. We are in the NE and there are so many college students who want to do research that high schoolers have to get in line.</p>

<p>i like how intel STS lists its alumni that have won nobel prizes; but i love how intel STS doesn't list the nobel prize winners who didn't do intel STS at all</p>

<p>participation in these science fairs in not indicative of potential and future success but rather indicative of only the supportive/nourishing opportunities presented to the student at the time</p>

<p>Riley, you'd be surprised re: math/CS. In some newer subfields of math/CS, it is scary how little it takes to get to the cutting edge of research -- an understanding of calculus principles, a firm understanding of everything up to calculus, and some self-study can go a very long way.</p>

<p>arkleseizure - I was thinking about healthcare, which is all I know. I wish I knew more about the math/CS end of things - it does sound like you could truly do it in your backyard with your calculus and your investment/interest.</p>

<p>In the original post to this thread, in the quote Roger Dooley posted, the statement was made: "As China and India churn out engineers.....</p>

<p>And later Mr. Payne made the statement that the "US produces fewer engineers per capita than any other developed country".. </p>

<p>But as this article points out:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20226756/site/newsweek/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20226756/site/newsweek/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>the "mythical million" new engineers coming out of India (and another million out of China) is largely a hoax. In fact, the article puts the number of PhDs coming out of India last year at approximately 50.</p>

<p>There may not be a need for kids to save American science.</p>

<p>Calcruzer, that article doesn't pay any attention to the people who immigrate to the US, raise sons and daughters who get PhDs, and send them back home.</p>