So according to Sulkowicz’ parents, there is another woman out there who told Sulkowicz she had been raped by Nungesser, but who didn’t file a complaint.
Makes me wonder about campus scuttlebutt. There are three known complaints about Nungesser. But we have allegations that another woman says she was raped, and also Adam, who says he was assaulted. What are Columbia students hearing from their friends?
I thought there were only two, but only the women who had been groped filed a complaint prior to Emma filing hers. The ex may have filed after? I never got the impression there were three besides Emma. Now Adam is number 4.
Read the letter. Who knows whether it is accurate, but the parents say that Emma knew of one woman who had been raped and had filed a complaint, and a second woman who had been raped but did not file a complaint. If that is true, there is yet another person who says, privately, that Nungesser raped her. But this is a third-hand report, so…
Many are using ‘rape’ in a way not supported by law. The senior student from the fraternity house said he tried to kiss her and groped her. Not rape under any definition. Old girl friend said she had consensual sex but later realized he was ‘abusing her’ mentally and physically. I don’t think this consensual sex would meet the definition of rape under NY law either. Sexual assault? Maybe, but that is different than rape. I’m not saying that consensual sex can’t turn into rape (as may have happened in Emma’s situation, even though I personally don’t believe so even if I accept everything she says as true), but I haven’t read any accusations by the former girl friend that come anywhere close to rape. I’d have to read the NY criminal code, what the jury instructions require to find a person guilty of rape.
In hockey, the hits the players take would constitute assault if they were just between two people on the ice at the same time. The players agree to these bumps and bruises and rough play. There can be a point when the agreed to level of hits becomes a crime, when the hitter intentionally inflicts damage, knowing the victim never agreed to THAT level of force. It is very rare to find this level of force, but it has happened. With sex, the parties agree to touching and more, which would be assault if it were any two people who didn’t agree to have sex. There can be a point where it becomes rape, when one party knowingly goes beyond what they know the other party agreed to (or which is deemed beyond the norm in any situation such as drugging the other party or threatening the other party), but that standard has to be much higher than one person’s view that it was rape. If not, how can one ever be protected against accusations when anything ‘goes to the next level’? Are people expected to discuss every touch, every act before doing it? Is the 13 year old who french kisses his girlfriend guilty of sexual assault because the girl only wanted to ‘regular’ kiss?
I read that as the continuation of many calling both other incidents rape. Even in the Jezebel blog, the two other incidents prior to Adam coming forth were the two that have been known, one of which was groping. And those are the two who have been identified as the women Emma spoke to before she decided to come forward. Perhaps Emma was stopped from speaking about the timing of her report because she said two other women had been raped, which was not consistent with her previous statements about those discussions. That could suggest she was exaggerating the claims of at least one of the other women and the adviser did not think it was a good idea to contradict herself in that way (pure speculation, but it may be that the adviser was actually acting in her best interests). But perhaps the parents are reporting something that is new. I doubt that, however.
Please be accurate. The old girlfriend says they had sex which she now identifies as nonconsensual because he forced her and she did not consent. You may disbelieve her accusation, and it may be untrue, but that does not license you to misrepresent what it is: an accusation that he repeatedly raped her.
YES. Someone who kisses without permission is guilty of sexual assault if the individual kissed did not want that kiss. This applies to a boy kissing a girl, a girl kissing a boy, a boy kissing a boy, a girl kissing a girl. This will be an issue when the kisser either doesn’t ask permission, or misreads signals. Since 13yr olds aren’t great at reading signals, or giving them for that matter, it would be better to ask. I think we need to start teaching our kids they need to ask. Asking makes the kisser think about how the kissee sees the kisser’s actions. That is a good thing. imho.
Is this a huge cultural shift for some? Absolutely. It needs to happen. imho.
Alh, it has been several hours since your blockbuster post. Don’t you have anything new to report? 
Alsimon2, thanks for your reply.
You talked about biases earlier. My number one bias in life is the numbers have to work. I think you can relate to that. :). That is why I brought up probabilities.
So the Emma case…I can see Columbia telling Emma, you couldn’t prove your case. you lost.
I can Columbia telling Paul, congratulations. You won the case. Pack your bags. You have to leave.
You have to leave because the odds that you are not guilty of at least one charge is very very low. There is reasonable doubt that you are not guilty of at least one assault. We don’t want the kind of student in our school that has been accused this many times.
Bye.
Alsimon2, that’s where the math is going. 
I am sure you have heard, “Numbers don’t lie. People do”.
What is the percentage of sexual assault cases that are he said she said cases? What is the percentage of sexual sexual assault cases on college campuses are he said she said cases?
Most cases that are reported don’t go anywhere. Is it fair to say most cases that are reported are he said she said cases?
@dstark - but Columbia would have no standing to tell Nungesser to leave if the panel had just found him not guilty. He would sue for sure and would win for sure. You can’t expel without some documents cause. Accusations, no matter how many are not cause.
Now I am waiting to see about this 4th (or maybe 5th?) allegation made by a male student. If that turns out to have some substance then I think I may be leaning towards believing that this guy is guilty - of what I am still not sure though.
I look at probabilities too. But in looking at probabilities, we have to make sure we do the math right. It’s easy to produce the probability of independent events a, b and c all happening: just multiply the individual probabilities. But that only works if the events are independent. These aren’t.
Those of us who’ve been around here for a while occasionally see a student who invokes the following reasoning:
Not so fast, Smartypants. You’re assuming that the colleges’ decisions are independent. They’re not-- every single college is seeing your B- in sophomore year, and the typo in your essay. Every single college is seeing the Intel award and the state fencing championship on your competitor’s application. If you’re not quite good enough, all your schools will reject you.
Similarly, there’s only a tiny chance that three students would independently accuse a fellow student of sexual assault when he was actually innocent. But the chance of him being innocent if three colluding students accuse him is little different than the chance of his innocence with only one accuser. The second and third accusations are not giving us much extra evidence.
CF, I know you look at probabilities. One reason I like your posts.
These four cases may not be independent of each other. I am not sure. The choice to report may not have been an independent action. Still… Plus, I don’t know Adam’s story.
HarvestMoon1, you are the lawyer. You can’t kick the guy out using a morals clause? Code and conduct? A pattern?
Edit…CF, We only need two independent 50/50 cases, right?
@dstark I would think a university could not do so. Especially since the university itself found him “not responsible.” So what would they be basing their expulsion on? 3 or 4 accusations that they have found him not responsible for?
Think of the precedent that would set.
I read the Jezebel article, and Nungesser still seems guilty to me. I could see Emma using the text messages as a way to stay close to Nungesser until she wanted to discuss the rape. But also, the fact that Nungesser has a new accuser, who is also male, is very telling. We all know the ramifications of lying about rape, and I just don’t feel like someone would reveal something like that out of malice. And this man is also taking legal action, so I find that interesting.
My eyes, my eyes! Two independent 50/50 cases gets us to a 75% probability, or 3:1 odds he did it.
On edit: If you think that if I flip two coins, every time at least one will end up with heads, I’d like you to step right in to the Fang Casino. I’ll be happy to take all your money accept your bets.
dstark, you can only kick him out if that’s what the rulebook says. If the rulebook says you have to have a proven case of assault before you can be kicked out, then if he had 200 cases not proved, he’s still in. If the rules say if you have 3 disciplinary hearings and you win them all you are still out, a three strikes and you are out no matter what, then they can kick you out (and that’s when the accused will argue the rules are unfair and against due process, and Justice Scalia and I will say no due process is owed, that due process is a government’s duty only and those on this list will claim there is due process owed). Do you want anyone to have the power against your child at any school, that even if you prove that it was not rape, not assault, that she/he set you up, any 2 accusations can get you tossed? Against a minority student? Against a female student at a school that used to be all male? Any two independent persons can just point at someone and say ‘he did this to me’ with no other proof?
No, two independent 50/50 cases doesn’t equal 100.
HarvestMoon1, ok…
So, what if a case is 50/50? You know another independent case is out there that is also 50/50. So the odds are 75 percent the guy is guilty in at least one case.
You can’t do anything to this guy?
The report I read of the longer term girlfriend was not that she claimed it was rape all along, but that she consented to the sex and now, looking back, she determined that the conduct was abusive. Not that it was at the time at the time, that is was after the fact.
This is the report I read: http://bwog.com/2014/01/23/accessible-prompt-and-equitable-an-examination-of-sexual-assault-at-columbia/
You may say she consented, but that’s not her story. She says the sex was non-consensual. Non-consensual sex is rape. I have no idea whether her story is true, but I object to your mischaracterizing it.
Are colleges not allowed to consider accusations together? If it was a Cosby-like situation, with over twenty independent accusations, wouldn’t the college be justified in saying that he did it?
I don’t place much weight on the two other female accusers, but if “Adam” made an accusation, to anyone, before he knew of Sulkowicz’ story, I’d place great weight on it. That would be enough for me, and I’d expel Nungesser.