Emma Sulkowicz's Alleged Attacker speaks again in new article

[greenwitch]

@Cardinal Fang wrote:

Women don’t see the mattress as a symbol of Nungesser raping Sulcowicz. It’s a symbol of women refusing to sit down and shut up. It’s a symbol of refusing to be silenced, refusing to be shamed. If Columbia tries to silence something that is the very symbol of refusing to be silenced, it’s likely to backfire on them.

Exactly.

And in fact it already backfired on Columbia when they charged her $400 or something for destruction of dorm property.

[al2simon]

Well, I have to leave for now. Just one last comment.

In high school, when I read Arthur Miller’s play “The Crucible”, I thought “How could these silly Puritans be so dumb. Thank God our modern sense of values, justice, and due process would prevent us from doing anything like this again”.

Gulp. I guess I understand now. People are willing to ignore fundamental notions of fairness we’ve lived by for centuries.

I’m going to buy a bomb shelter in Tahiti. Let me know when you’ve exterminated all the guys so I can come out. I’ll volunteer to help repopulate the Earth, accompanied by a notary public to witness signatures of course Probably more fun than discussing math.

[momrath]

@Harvestmoon1, that isn’t how I would interpret that passage. It says that complaints can be filed directly with the OCR “against an institution” which would be different from a complaint against a fellow student. “Adam” at this point may file a complaint against Nungesser, but he wouldn’t be in a position to complain about Columbia. Or so it seems to me. I don’t know; it’s fuzzy.

As I mentioned on the other thread I think the OCR has bitten off more than it can digest and that it’s not going to be able to process the avalanche of complaints that are coming its way, both from the accusers and the accused – exponentially so, if Harvestmoon1 is correct that complainants can go directly to the OCR, instead of pursuing their grievance internally with their college!

I think that NYT opinion piece by Judith Shulevitz is an excellent analysis of where we are today. (For those that don’t know Shulevitz writes for the New Republic and her husband, Nicolas Lemann, is a professor at – and former dean of – Columbia Journalism School.)

What surprises me is Shulevitz’s description of the level of animosity toward the college’s sexual misconduct proceedings. So not only do alleged victims and victims’ advocates mistrust the police and mistrust the courts, they mistrust their own colleges as well. In effect, unless an investigation ends in an expulsion or conviction it’s never over.

There’s no doubt that on many occasions colleges have not treated sexual-assault accusations as seriously as they should have. Nor did they do enough to ensure that women felt completely safe on campus. But in the past half-decade, the civil rights office has tried so hard to correct that problem that it is now forcing schools to go too far in the other direction, which has made campus procedures seem even less credible. Schools are being told to disregard what most Americans think of as the basic civil rights of a person accused of a heinous act.

When this is better understood, there will be a correction.

[dstark]

I don’t think your post is fair alsimon2.

I don’t like your post #521 too much.

We draw imaginary lines. Whatever is between our two lines is fair. Anything inside or outside our two lines is not fair.

What’s fair evolves over time. What is fair to one party is not necessarily fair to another.

[HarvestMoon1]

@momrath agree it is confusing. But at the end of the day, if the Jezebel article proves to be accurate reporting, he either filed a Title IX complaint against Columbia with the OCR or filed a Title IX complaint with Columbia’s Title IX coordinator against Nungesser.

Where the complaint was filed is not as important to me as is the possible existence of a 4th complaint involving Nungesser.

[dstark]

I guess nothing should happen to Nungesser even if there a fourth accusation. He is not going to be found guilty in Adam’s case.

What is Adam’s complaint?

[HarvestMoon1]

@dstark - very few details but this is what I read:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/02/alleged-columbia-rapist-accused-of-new-assault.html

[dstark]

HarvestMoon1, I get this…

The current Columbia senior, known as “Adam,” was close friends with Nungesser when Nungesser allegedly sexually assaulted him in his dorm room during an emotional discussion in 2011, Jezebel reports. Though Adam says he reported the incident to a student organization they both were members of, he declined to file a Title IX case until fall 2014, when he heard Sulkowicz’s story. He told Jezebel he waited so long because of “issues that face many male survivors of sexual assault — denial, fear that nobody would believe him, fear that even defining himself as a survivor would somehow damage others.” His case is pending.

He filed a title 9 case. What does Adam want to happen in his case?
Adam wants a ruling to be ???

[Cardinal_Fang]

I’m only seeing references to the Jezebel article. Is there another source?

[HarvestMoon1]

@dstark Not sure. These complaints are not made public as far as I know. I suppose a complainant can allege a host of things against a university or an individual under Title IX.

[dstark]

So a title 9 complaint can be against an individual or a student organiztion? Not necessarily a school?

[dstark]

CF, no.

[dstark]

The press reminds me of the tv show Whose Line Is It Anyway?

Everything is made up and the points don’t matter.

[marie1234]

There is not much in that Jezebel report. For starters, there is no actual name or actual attributed quote. We can call that not much for now but back in the old days that would be called nothing, try again young reporter and come back when you have a story. But, that was then and this is now, I guess.

[HarvestMoon1]

When dealing with “institutions of higher education” my understanding is you file a Title IX complaint with either the OCR against that institution or with the institution’s Title IX coordinator against an individual. You do not file with a student organization.

[dstark]

So, If I was a student and I assaulted somebody, that somebody could file a title 9 case against me?

I had no idea that was true.

[dstark]

I obviously do not know my title 9.

http://knowyourix.org/title-ix/how-to-file-a-title-ix-complaint

Filing a Title IX Discrimination Complaint with OCR

Who can file

Anyone who believes there has been an act of discrimination on the basis of sex against any person or group in a program or activity that receives ED financial assistance may file a complaint with OCR under Title IX. The person or organization filing the complaint need not be a victim of the alleged discrimination but may be affected by a general “hostile sexual environment” or complain on behalf of another person or group. A complaint should be sent to the OCR enforcement office that serves the state in which the alleged discrimination occurred.

I just don’t get who Adam is complaining about.

[HarvestMoon1]

My understanding is that you could alternatively file with the Title IX Coordinator at the university which would involve making an allegation against another student or students. If you look at what is quoted in my post # 517 you have the option of attempting to resolve the grievance in that manner before filing a formal complaint with the OCR.

[dstark]

HarvestMoon1, thanks.

[Cardinal_Fang]

OK, Mr. Consistency, explain to me how this is consistent:

Scenario 1:

Alice: He raped me! I was screaming No, no, stop!
Bob: It was consensual.
(No other witnesses)

Tribunal: Sorry, we don’t have any more evidence, we can’t find Bob guilty.

Scenario 2:

Alice: He raped me! I was screaming No, no, stop!
Bob: It was consensual.
Clare (who doesn’t know Alice): I heard her screaming.

Tribunal: That’s good evidence. Guilty.

Scenario 3:

Alice: He raped me! I was screaming No, no, stop!
Bob: It was consensual.
Clare (who doesn’t know Alice): He did the exact same thing to me.

Tribunal: Clare’s evidence doesn’t count. Not guilty.

Why does Clare’s evidence count when she is testifying as a witness that she heard Bob raping Alice, but does not count as evidence when she says Bob did the same thing to her? Why does she stop being believable when she says she was raped?