Believing that the woman is telling the truth as she believes it doesn’t mean anything at all. What is that?
The problem with this case, for me, is that it reminds me a lot more of “vindictive ex” stories than it does of survivor stories.
@momofthreeboys I agree. I don’t feel like it was the most violent rape either. The way she presents her case, it just sounds like Nungesser maybe did something she wasn’t 100% okay with doing, but I would hardly call this thing a brutal rape.
@scholarme Yeah, it sounds like a regretful encounter.
Regretful indeed. Nothing says regret like having someone stick something in your anus without your permission.
Momoftwo- really? you consent to one particular sex act and that means your partner gets to shove whatever he likes wherever he likes?
No, it doesn’t mean that at all. Of course. Usually, you would tell him to knock it off or kick him out of your bed or something other than continue a flirty relationship for a while and eventually report him to someone at your school and then even more eventually the police and then drag around a mattress and call it art. No, not everyone is going to get this behavior.
Exactly marie - what is wrong here? Do we now say we need the government and university administration in our bedrooms saying which part of the Kama Sutra we “can” and “can’t” do? Heck no. Clearly these two weren’t communicating. Period. If the university wants to call lack of communication “sexual misconduct” and conduct trials to determine if one or the other is 1% more believable about consent because they are afraid of Title IX we will have to live with it until reforms are in place. But goodness gracious let’s get our head out of the clouds about what some of this really is all about.
I don’t know whether Sulkowicz’ story is true. But saying that it can’t be true because Sulkowicz was friendly and loving with Nungesser after the attack is painfully naive about the reality of domestic abuse.
Exhibit A: Janay Rice. She has remained with her then-boyfriend, now husband, defended him, loves him and says so publicly. If she came forward now and said her boyfriend knocked her out in an elevator and dragged her out feet first, naysayers would be saying, “Can’t be true. Why, a couple of days after the alleged incident they were so friendly. Come on, she married the guy after that night. It’s just that they weren’t communicating.” Naysayers would be saying that… except for the fact that there is video.
We know that women who are abused stay with their attackers. It happens every day. Therefore, that a woman has stayed with her alleged attacker does nothing to discredit her story. In 2015, people shouldn’t be so naive.
Domestic abuse? They were casual college hook-ups. Janay Rice is a football wife which is a completely different situation and she is the one saying she was not abused, they were drunk, leave them alone, please. The exhibit is not relevant to this case. Sorry.
My theory is that neither party is all that confident of being in the right, because neither one of them has done all that they could to defend their position. Specifically, the woman did not sue the man in civil court for assault, and the man did not sue the woman in civil court for defamation. In any such suit, the standard of proof would be the preponderance of the evidence, and the case would be presided over by a professional judge, with a jury, and with lawyers representing both parties. Instead, both have chosen to try the case in the court of public opinion, where truth is not the primary consideration.
This was a casual college friendship that involved a few hookups. I don’t see the similarity in comparing this to an abuse situation in a marriage or even a long term romantic relationship. Emma was not ultimately dependent on Nungesser in any way–not financially or physically or emotionally–so it is hard for me to understand her reaction (to ask for cuddles and say she loves him, to continue the friendship at all after the alleged attack) in the same way.
At this point though, after reading about all of these cases we’ve discussed, I have come to understand that ANY behavior exhibited by a victim is normal and to be expected:
One cries
Another doesn’t cry
One cuts off all contact
Another continues to flirt and pursue a friendship
One files a complaint immediately
Another waits a year to file a complaint
All of these situations above have been called normal reactions in different cases. Trying to figure out which reaction feels true or real spins me in circles. And I can’t deny my own feelings on how I would react myself plays into it as well. Which is why I am left with things that can be proved as facts. Unfortunately in many cases there are no “facts”, just one story vs another.
But it is also why things like photos/videotape, BAC levels of the victim, drug tests of the victim, rape kit evidence, and written correspondence have a strong impact on my interpretation of a case.
If he was found not guilty under the lesser standards of a university, he must be innocent. That’s different than a criminal case with a ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ standard.
Don’t this woman’s actions constitute harassment?
My theory is that each of them is confident that they are right, but each of them knows that the evidence is lacking. If I were sitting on a jury in a civil case, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t find for her for assault, and I wouldn’t find for him for defamation. Because I don’t know what happened. There is, in my view, neither a preponderance of the evidence for her, nor for him.
greenwitch, there are too many points to pick at in your summary of events to go through it in detail. Starting with the claim that he was accused of doing the same thing to other women…
Look, Emma says that he choked her and hit her and forcibly raped her anally. I really, really wish that if that is what happened she had gone to the police promptly, or at least to the campus health services. If this happened, there would have been bruising and most likely tearing. I don’t think that even the police would have discounted a young woman who had evidence of strangulation. When she finally did file a complaint with them, they obviously tried to find something to charge him with. I think they would have done better then, with actual physical evidence.
Regarding her behavior towards him after the incident…as stated by others above, if she were married to him, dependent upon him, in some kind of unequal power situation, without resources, and so on, I would find it very plausible that she would continue to act in a placatory, loving manner towards him. But she wasn’t. And what’s more, she said he choked her and hit her. Choked her and hit her! Not just persisted in anal sex that she didn’t want. I just can’t imagine sending a guy loving texts after he choked me and hit me. I just can’t.
I don’t know what happened here, but her course of action baffles me.
It’s not difficult for me, because life is complicated. One time, when I was around Emma’s age, I was involved with a guy. I wasn’t dependent on him financially or physically. Emotionally? Well… I was seeing the guy. At one point in the relationship, he hit me. What I should have done, and what I would advise anyone to do in my situation, was show him the door right then and there and never have anything to do with him again. This is obvious.
Now, those of you who’ve read my posts know that I am not a wilting daisy. I never have been. And yet, I did not throw him over on the spot like I should have. I continued to see him for a while-- a couple of weeks, I think. That was stupid. I look back and wonder, what was I thinking? But people are stupid sometimes, and relationships are complicated always.
If I could do something so stupid, I can easily understand why another woman would be equally stupid.
@marie1234 “Not everyone wants to be a media sensation and talk about **** sex on TV for a few years. I get that, easily.”
Well sure I get that too, we all value our privacy. But the thing is Marie, the media is talking about it anyway. I am perplexed why this boy has not done more to defend himself. All we know is what Paul recently stated in the Daily Beast and NY Times articles - that they engaged in the act by “mutual consent.” Well what does that mean? Did she specifically tell him o.k. or did he interpret by her actions that it was o.k? I do not see anywhere in the articles where he specifically denies hitting or strangling her. These are quite serious allegations. Instead he petitions the university to allow him to take his senior year abroad which just seems like more “avoidance” to me. And when you add to the mix that he has a university ruling finding him “not responsible”, his continued hiding in the shadows makes less sense.
Meanwhile, Emma has attended a press conference with a U.S. Senator, had her side of the story featured on the front page of the NY Times and in other major publications, has received numerous accolades for her “Carry that Weight” visual art senior thesis and continues to protest the university’s decision despite her choosing that as the venue for resolution. And she has a university professor supervising the project which is now a requirement for her graduation. Seems like Paul should be pretty ticked off about that one since he has already been found “not responsible” by the university itself. Shouldn’t that have some impact on the project?
I have already said that I am on the fence on this one. But Paul Nungesser has a finding of “not responsible” from Columbia University and whether he likes it or not his case is still being tried in the court of public opinion. But if he wants me or anyone else to be swayed, then he is going to have to do a better job of defending himself. We have certainly heard Emma’s voice but perhaps it is time we hear more of his. I am all ears.
Totally plausible that Sulkowicz is a bunny boiler and opportunist who has parlayed her situation into a major success.
Also plausible that Nungesser is a creep who messed with the wrong girl, and is now getting his just desserts in an epically" karma is a b****" way.
I wouldn’t bet a lot on this one. But I’d put $10 on bunny boiler.
@HarvestMoon1 Well said.
CF: But you were in a relationship of some sort. You had an attachment and probably thought it was a one time thing. He didn’t rape you or choke you. For Emma, this was a very casual friendship with some occasional, and mutually requested “benefits”. She had no real attachment to him. I don’t see this as in any way similar. I know we can’t see inside her head, but I have to admit that it baffles me that she would not have told a friend what a jerk this guy was and that he choked and punched her. And would want to hang out with him.
I’d match your $10. She’s just mad because things didn’t go her way but she doesn’t have much attention internationally so I think:
It is entirely possible Nungesser doesn’t “care” what people think beyond being hurt as any human being would if you someone was defaming you. It’s entirely possible he doesn’t plan on spending the rest of his life in the US and the perception is that this is a United Stats college and university “issue” not a global issue and he day of fame is over internationally I do believe. And it’s entirely possible he’s going to wait until he has his diploma in hand and then sue her (that would be but I would advise if he were mine), she’s got money and her parents sure didn’t have a problem sticking their noses into the public media fray so may be fair game. Who knows. There might be some hot to trot attorney who would take it on.
You can’t on the one hand say that this was a very casual relationship with occasional “benefits,” and on the other hand point to her alleged attachment to him after the alleged incident (as evidenced by her telling him she loved him) as evidence that the incident never happened.
Make up your mind. You can say she evinced considerable affection to him after the alleged incident, and we must explain why she would remain attached to him after the events she claims occurred.
Or, you can say that this was just a casual relationship. But if that is so, we have nothing to explain, and the messages that Nungesser has made public are irrelevant to our understanding of the situation.
But you don’t get to say both. Pick one. Either she was attached, or she wasn’t.