Thanks ah, but I wasn’t actually trying to play the “sympathy card” I was curious about other women and whether this is something they think about.
I take precautions if I’m somewhere unfamiliar. I take precautions if I’m somewhere familiar and it’s dark or late at night…like my work parking lot where I don’t worry during the day. I park near or under a parking lot lot at the grocery store at night or the mall at night. I take precautions against my purse and wallet when I’m somewhere that it would be easy to pickpocket. I did the same thing when i was single and in my twenties and when I was in college. I certainly not for one second considered myself some sort of martyr for being a woman. So no I don’t worry everyday just when I’m somewhere that I should be careful. But I also got taught at a young age not to look down at the ground and to be aware of my surroundings especially if I was in an unfamiliar place. I’ve, of course, had (at times when I was single) drunk guys hit on me, but I’ve never been so out of control that I couldn’t handle it. I didn’t consider it an assault or anything more than annoying. But I also know that when I was very young I did my share of “hunting” and I’m sure there’s a guy or two out in the world that at the time thought I was annoying. But fear on a regular basis, not really.
Susanna: I didn’t think you were playing any sympathy card. I am truly sorry that happened to you.
Protecting myself as I move through the world is second nature and an almost unconscious state of being, because these are behaviors I was taught as a child and have been practicing my whole life. I don’t usually stop and think about them. They are automatic at this point.
If the risk of rape didn’t exist, we wouldn’t be having this discussion about women having a responsibility to protect themselves. imho.
When my sons went off to college, I felt it necessary to give the son who is gay different sorts of warnings than his heterosexual brothers. He seemed much more vulnerable to me. The research told me this was the case.
Hanna is right about self-interest.
And, the rapists are choosing the victims very carefully.That’s what criminals do so educating potential victims before victimhood reallly should not get lumped in with victim-blaming. It’s important and it tends to get lost in this man discussion because she’s also correct that it’s not most men either unless you include the drunken confusion and I also don’t know how you educate people to do things wisely when they are plastered. That seems impossible.
Do most women worry about rape? I don’t really think so, either. My college daughter took mace and walks a lot at night because she has no car and uses public transportation and has grown up learning to take the necessary precautions. Riding the subway at night is not the time to look hot, in other words. Drunken parties are just not her thing so that helps. My son tells me quite a bit about those, though.
I also try to stay alert and have had my share of sketchy situations to be sure. But, worry on a daily basis? No.
“It seems reasonable to me that it’s easier to teach people to act in their own interest than in someone else’s interest. Especially when we’re trying to change the behavior of a potential rapist who is, by definition, a selfish jerk.”
Exactly. If a guy’s inclined to be a rapist, well, I don’t think a seminar or two is going to make a difference. Getting kicked out of school probably doesn’t make a difference either. Example – Jesse Matthew. If you are talking about a real rape predator, jail time is the only thing that is going to work.
But we’re not really talking about Jesse Matthew. We are talking about things that would make these incidents less likely to happen between COLLEGE KIDS. These are situations where (i) boys do things (while still being legally responsible) that they would not do when sober or mildly buzzed and (ii) girls have things happen to them that would they would be able to avoid or prevent or resist if they were sober or just merely buzzed.
We know that drunk people get into a lot of car crashes and so we do something about drunk driving. But strangely it is “victim blaming” or “excusing male rapists” if we point out that upwards of 90% of these incidents involve booze and then suggest doing something about that.
"Vanderbilt scenario. Nothing the girl could have done to protect herself from her predator boyfriend. "
Nonsense. Vandy is the perfect example that proves my point. That mess never ever ever comes close to happening without the booze.
The Vandy victim was unconscious from drinking and testified she had never been so drunk in her life. She was so drunk she never would have been able to prove her case or even know she was attacked. Except that the guys were also so wasted that they stupidly drunkenly took and sent pictures!! Batey, who has now been convicted, testified that he had between 14 and 22 drinks that night!! Vandenberg (also convicted) is not a predator – he was dating the girl. Had he previously acted in these ways before? Do you think he passes out condoms and encourages the other dudes to have sex with HIS girlfriend unless he is blind drunk and high on cocaine? Do you think someone who was not completely wasted might have intervened rather than join in?
I’m not so sure about that. He got caught this time, but only by chance. I could well believe he’d done it before. Batey, maybe not, but Vandenberg, yes,.
Clearly men have to taught to understand affirmative consent and that no means no. Schools have to take appropriate action to support victims and punish offenders. I also think the overall campus culture has to change to de-emphasize the party and drinking scene. I don’t think that will happen until and unless women are involved in supporting those changes. I don’t think the men would behave in ways that are degrading to women (not rape but the meat market kind of party) without women accepting and encouraging that behavior which I think contributes to sexual assault. I don’t understand why saying that BOTH men and women have to assume some responsibility for a campus climate that doesn’t do enough to discourage this behavior is seen as blaming the victim.
I have yet to see you give any specific thing that will solve this problem DStark. Punishment only goes so far.
I agree with nwesterly that alcohol also plays a part in turning a man that would never assault a women into one that does, at least some of the time. As the research shows, a drunk women is more likely to agree to do something she normally wouldn’t while a drunk man is more likely to not understand whether there was consent or when it was withdrawn. Not talking about situations in which predators target women and ply them with drink, but the post-party hookup turned bad. The amount of alcohol consumed seems so much more than back when I was in college.
I am not sure if there is more drinking today but I definitely do not remember all the hard alcohol that seems to be so prevalent at the parties today. I remember kegs, kegs and more kegs.
I don’t remember drinking midweek as a given or anything much but kegs. Mixed drinks were rare and a treat. No such thing as a beer bong or having shots be part of a regular night of drinking. I remember the drinking as to get happy not to get black out drunk.
My wife worries about sexual assault.
We just walked 2 miles home in the dark and she said she wouldn’t do the walk alone.
Does your daughter carry mace because she is afraid of women?
I have not a clue how the Yes means Yes changes anything, but it others understand how it works and teaches students, and it is successful, then I am all for it. Just do not see it though.
Having been on the receiving end of No means No, I can confirm it works like a brick to head, quite effectively. And no special or series of interpretations required.
Or put another way - without more emphasis on excessive drinking, then expecting Yes mean Yes and No means No to work is somewhat wishful thinking. And this goes equal for males and females.
Until it is acknowledged that most intoxicated people are not even thinking about said laws and policies at moment that such policies are expected to be practiced, nothing much will change.
If intoxicated people were known to be able to think straight, then there would be no need for designated drivers. So why in the world are people expecting, or better said, pretending with these laws and policies that drunk students think straight? Seems nonsensical to me.
Therefore, with alcohol in the mix, it is expecting a lot to think these laws will help. These laws are really for sober people who can be reasonably and accurately account for and react rationally to what is happening.
It is weird that any of us even have to say this, but I understand given the political environment. I just do not know anyone who even thinks that a rape is the fault of the female.
Using my house as a suitable microcosm and having spent some quality time over the decades learning the stitch patterns of the couch, then it is a given that a female(s) can have much control in changing and affecting an environment, if she (they) choose to exercise it.
This requires counseling, not tribunals. @momofthreeboys has expressed this in many posts.
No, this is not something women face every day of their lives because very few women are hanging out in deserted areas on purpose. Darn, few men do that, This is a high risk activity that exposes someone to people who prey on others who choose to be alone in deserted areas. Does not apply in any way to the standard female living her life.
That’s my best outcome too.
Reflecting on the Slate article and the Yale guidelines I am convinced not that colleges should not regulate their students’ bedroom behavior, but they CANNOT. Trying to thread the needle between what is consensual and what is not – or may have been for one action but then wasn’t for another --across “40 distinct forms of sexual misconduct” involving various M/F/Other combinations, hovers in the realm of satire. A serious appraisal of the trials and tribulations of Ryo, Casey, Devin, Ansley, Morgan and Kai (Jane and John Doe are presumably failed too privleged) requires a suspension of disbelief that Yale students need this kind of acceptable sexual behavior primer. This is the nanny state as voyeur!
Amen.
ETA, I’m just catching up on reading all the attachments. The Inside Higher Ed “Open Letter to OCR” written by an anonymous college Title IX administrator is illuminating. And it was written over three years ago!
Anonymous was right: these things haven’t ended well.
“Anonymous was right: these things haven’t ended well.”
Most of these incidents are just like a drunken car crash. Bad for everyone involved. Sorting out who is at fault and punishing that person (while necessary) doesn’t make it end well.
Those Yale handbook scenarios are laugh-able. Who is going to remember and implement those legal nice-ities at 2 a.m. when the hormones are flowing and one or both of the participants has inebriated themselves to the point that the cerebellum is barely functioning.
DStark: Maybe that is the disconnect. Many women I know walk alone at night because they have to get from the office to the subway, from the subway to the train, from the train home or to their car. Some walk or run for exercise after dark because that is the only time they have. They travel alone for work and are in strange cities after meetings to figure out where to eat and are in a hotel room alone. Amazingly, women have jobs with enough responsibility that they may have to work very late alone in a mostly empty office building. How can they do that, let alone be Secretary of State, or run a country, if they are constantly afraid of sexual assault? I can understand if you live in an area that is every dangerous where robbery and assault are common place… Friends that travel to certain countries overseas for work do not venture out without a driver and guard. Luckily, most of us do not face those circumstances every day and the real risk of sexual assault is much lower than many other possible bad events.
I would still be curious about your proposals to reduce campus sexual assault. Everyone agrees that better education is key, but not much evidence that actually is working. What do your propose besides throwing accused men out of school? Does that work?
Upthread bearpanther raised the question whether some of us give off “don’t mess with me” vibes. I think some of us do and this is learned behavior. Those of us who give off this vibe probably are much more comfortable out by ourselves on the streets or in a parking garage at night. Though I think all will agree we are taking steps to minimize risk. We are taking precautions. I also think that, post Anita Hill, business culture has changed, or at least expectations of business culture have changed. Women these days don’t necessarily believe they have to overlook harassment. That culture has changed, at least somewhat. imho.
Sometimes women are raped while jogging, sometimes this happens in daylight and sometimes I hear folks saying these women should have known better than to be jogging alone. They put themselves in a risky situation. They have themselves to blame. These are empowered women who may or may not have been worried about rape. They are not to blame for being raped. The one responsible for that rape is the rapist.
Mom2and, women have to protect themselves from men. This doesn’t mean women can’t do their jobs. Women have to take precautions against men. It is a fabric of society. We have to teach our daughters how to protect themselves from men. Almost every poster in this thread talks about women protecting themselves.
We have to change the culture if we want to cut assaults. Certain behaviors are not acceptable and will not be tolerated. Certain behaviors are not cool.
If you think men can’t change their behavior, you don’t think too highly of men, and maybe you are right.
This fixation on what women have to do when they are the ones who are assaulted is part of our “rape culture”.
I asked you a simple question… And you are off on a tangent. You didn’t answer me.
Punishment is not the only answer. It is a small part. If it makes you feel better, I don’t think a couple of accusations of sexual assault should lead to automatic expulsion from school. The multiple accusations should be considered when deciding what should be done. And yes, multiple independent accusations means the guy is probably guilty of at least one assault. More than my 75 percent number. Doesn’t mean you punish the guy with the maximum penalty. Doesn’t mean the guy should or should not be punished. It depends. It would be nice to have proof.
Sounds like a bad government program. Oh, it is a bad government program. This is what happens when a problem is exaggerated to cover everyone when it only really covers a subset.
I learned from my DS that Emma is creating a major backlash among females at his college. As compared to situations of drunk sex gone bad, there is many more multiples of drunk sex on college campus that both the male and female never complain or file charges about, but they realize was a mistake, they both shake it off, and they go about their merry lives. Even females on his campus are openly saying rape is not some norm on campus; that is the advocates’ line. Advocates, who incidentally, are not on campus living the student life. Go figure that logic out - people outside know better than those inside.
So, this focus on the few drunk sex debacles and then extrapolating that all females have these issues and assuming that all females need the big hand of government to save them is rubbing more than a few females the wrong way. They do not view themselves like this. Pretty similar to this thread where some who are pervasively worried about rape think all females are pervasively worried about rape. No, not all females live in a mental fear negative zone.
But here is an issue my DS pointed out: what Emma did was make it so that what was a seemingly fair and thorough review by a tribunal is not something to be respected, so why even go through it?
In short, Emma has publicly delegitimatized what advocates have been trying to legitimize, the tribunals. If the tribunal process is that unfair, even to a bona fide rape victim such as Emma, then what is the point of having them? Therefore, Emma has helped the cause for reducing what tribunals should do, if her case is so darn obvious yet they cannot figure her’s out as actual rape.
Emma is beyond a parody at this point; she is actually helpful to the opposition for she publicly backs up the males who have said the tribunals are inept. She has given males more reason to file cases against college tribunals.
My proposal to reduce campus sexual assault starts in childhood. I think all successful education is based on modeling behaviors. It is possible there is nothing to be done about born-that-way sociopaths. However, a lot of young men haven’t had good role models. Al2simon has brought that up several times and I agree. I have great difficultly believing he or dstark or Cardinal Fang is going to raise a son who gets drunk at college and decides it is okay to encourage and record for posterity his male friends raping his girlfriend. I have difficulty believing their sons won’t intercede if a roommate does this in their presence. It doesn’t seem possible to me all the men involved in this horrible assault were sociopaths. Well, I guess that depends on definitions, too.
I think this is somehow connected with the amount of bullying we put up with in elementary, middle and high schools. We could stop bullying if we cared enough. There is still a sense among many that this is just one of those things kids have to learn to deal with. I think the way to teach them to deal with it, is to teach them to object to it and not put up with it. They can’t do that without a whole lot of adult support and frequently they just don’t get it.