Mom2and, women aren’t saints. I respect women…but my respect is not unlimited. 
My daughters are very close to being saints.
“As parents, if we assume that our children are incapable of ever doing wrong, I think we do them and society a huge disservice”
There’s a difference between assuming a child is incapable of ever doing wrong and assuming that you taught your son not to commit rape regardless of opportunity or peer pressure.
There are all kinds of foolish mistakes that otherwise decent college kids can make. I agree with you there. But not rape. Not stabbing. Not murder.
"I believe @momof3boys said something about how she would react if she received a call from her son that he was being charged with sexual assault from a drunken he said/ she said encounter and she talked about calling an attorney, seeking a counselor, etc., and the assumption seemed to be that her son in that scenario would obviously be a victim of a false accusation. "
Why do you come to that conclusion? Guilty people need attorneys and counselors as much or more than innocent people. And I expect parents to keep loving their children even if they turn out to be murderers. You can love your child without excusing or denying his terrible behavior.
In the Yale scenarios, all the names are intentionally chosen to be gender neutral. Casey, Riley, Jamie, Cameron, Jessie, Vic: could be men or women.
I’m surprised that people objected to the Casey-Ryo scenario. Casey said stop; Ryo restrained Casey and didn’t stop. I’d expel for that, if I had proof. Say I had the email from Ryo to Casey, in which Ryo apologized. Out Ryo would go. Clear non-consent, plus force? For me that one is a no-brainer.
I would have thought Devin-Ansley one would be tougher. Devin makes a sexual move; Ansley pulls away, moves Devin’s hands and says “Not so fast”; Devin re-initiates the move; Ansley inches backwards, then becomes still; Devin has sex with Ansley. They’re saying multi-semester suspension to expulsion. I know that some on this board are saying anything short of Ansley hitting Devin with a brick should be construed as consent.
The Alexis-Riley one is interesting as well, for contrast:
The link to all eight scenarios:
http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2013/09/10/sexual-misconduct-scenarios-released/ (click the link, then click to download the scenarios)
Sadly @Hanna, although I wish with all my heart that you were right, I don’t think the statistics or anecdotal data bear you out. We cannot parent proof our children from committing bad acts. You can’t teach your son not to commit rape. You can certainly try. You can raise your son to respect women, you can constantly remind your son about the dangers of peer pressure and alcohol, you can expose your son to the stories of women who have been victims so they understand the impact such action can have. But all of this will only reduce the risk, not prevent it altogether. If between 5 - 20 % of men engage in non consensual sex, do you really believe that all those parents dropped the ball?
Have any of you listened to the popular podcast Serial? It addresses the trial and conviction of a high school boy for strangling to death his ex-girlfriend. By all accounts, prior to the crime, this young man was a great kid - well-liked by peers and teachers, excellent student, athlete, no prior acts of violence. In this situation, the evidence is murky and perhaps he will be ultimately exonerated. But this is just one story and there are many like this. The Serial podcast briefly references another horrific crime - an even younger teen found guilty of the brutal stabbing death of his younger brother. His parents believe he was falsely convicted. They certainly don’t think that they raised a child capable of murdering his own brother. There are many decent people who because of mental illness, drugs or alcohol, emotional outburst, or simply stupid teenage folly, make extremely bad choices.
At the Vanderbilt rapists’ trial, Vandenberg’s parents expressed disbelief when the verdict was read. Apparently they (and Vandenberg’s lawyer) still think he is innocent. No parent wants to believe that their child has behaved monstrously, even when it’s on video.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/02/10/3621353/prospective-college-students-rape-columbia/
'An activist group called No Red Tape — named for a protest symbol that originated at Columbia in the late 1990s intended to criticize the bureaucracy standing in the way of sexual assault reform — showed up at a prospective student session on Tuesday morning to spark a conversation about the way their school handles rape cases.
At the event, No Red Tape distributed a letter to the prospective students in attendance, encouraging them to ask college officials specific questions about what the school is currently doing to combat rape culture.
For prospective students who have concerns about the temporary suspensions handed out to students found guilty of rape, the letter suggests asking, “Why does Columbia want rapists to remain on campus?”
Another suggestion is simply to ask, “Will I be safe on this campus?”"
The letter that was distributed, complete with trigger warning:
I would love to have been a fly on the wall hearing the reactions of parents and students…do they automatically cross Columbia off the list? Do they actually go into the session and ask these questions? Do they just throw the letter away?
How do you think you would react as a parent (or a student, if there are any following this thread)?
Pittsburghscribe, love your post.
Serial is great. There is a thread on Serial. Maybe the thread is on page 2 or 3 in the parent forum. A few lawyers have participated. You might enjoy that thread.
I changed my mind as I listened to the show.
CF, I read the Yale scenarios. I feel good about Yale. I like all the decisions.
We write our opinions here. I am no different. I do too. Making decisions in real life, decisions that affect real people, is a lot harder in real life than pontificating on a bb.
My guess is in real life the actual occurences are more difficult to deal with than the scenarios are. Still, I like what Yale is doing… And Dartmouth and Brown.
If I were a parent of a prospective Columbia student I’d wonder whether Columbia was doing better or worse than the other colleges my child was considering.
I’m grateful for the resources @al2simon has shared. I’ve learned from him to look more closely into the statistics and stories from the colleges. For example, the activists say that no students have been expelled from Columbia for rape recently. But al2simon informs us that sometimes when the accused student knows that the college has the goods on him, he quietly withdraws. Those withdrawals wouldn’t show up in the statistics.
I also found the Yale scenarios useful. I realize that when a college says they have determined that the sex was nonconsensual, that just means the accuser didn’t consent. It doesn’t mean the accused person realized the sex was nonconsensual according to the college rules. Sometimes situations are ambiguous, and colleges don’t want to expel in those situations.
So, for example, in Yale’s Sidney-Harper scenario, Sidney said, “We shouldn’t do this,” and “This is a bad idea.” Also, in the course of the Sidney-Harper relationship, Sidney had maintained that they were opposed to having sex at this point in the relationship. However, Sidney continued to cooperate physically. Yale says that they require unambiguous consent, and this wasn’t it. So this would count as nonconsensual sex, but Yale wouldn’t expel for it. I don’t imagine Columbia would expel for it either.
I had previously read reports where a college determined that sex was nonconsensual according to their code of conduct, but didn’t expel for it. I ranted, “Why didn’t they expel?” but I now understand. I wouldn’t expel Harper either.
Most people learn better from examples than from rules; I know I do. I’d like to see more sample scenarios from more colleges. It would help me understand what colleges are doing, and it would help students understand, in specific, what they are expected to do and not do.
CF, that is a great post. I think the same way.
And Alsimon2 has been very patient.
If you are referring to the very first part of the @northwesty post #803, then that is my error. I should have added an “alleged” or “supposed” rape victim, e.g., “alleged bona fide rape victim.” Thanks for the catch. I thought it, but did not write it.
But, it was not a response to just being raped either.
When discussing what some of these females would do in an attempted rape, I stated that if attacked they had no problem blowing off the guy’s gonads.
But, my post was even more general than that. I stated that these females personally are not afraid to be messed with period - pick your reason.
However, I can tell you that rape is not a preoccupation on their minds as foremost danger; they think of overall general safety of family and person, including mugging and carjackings. It is erroneous to think because they are concerned about safety that they are obsessed about being raped. Rape is only but one possible crime to a person, of which they would defend themselves.
As for drinking, if they drink too much, they cannot defend themselves against a whole host of things, including rape. They know that. That is just common sense.
I really like the Yale scenarios are gender neutral. My first thought was: That really helps clarify my thinking. If I had kids headed to college, I’d be discussing those scenarios with them. I keep reading them myself.
Is there more information available about what the Yale chapter of SAE did? Yale says members impeded an investigation, but what were they investigating in the first place?
As far as I know, it’s breaking news. Maybe it’s too off topic but pittsburghscribe has brought up fraternity culture several times and I’m willing to go there if anyone else is. It isn’t Title IX and I know I keep interrupting that discussion.
I agree al2simon has been extraordinarily patient. Hunt, too.
SAE says, "The presentation was not supported by the fraternity, nor were members of the fraternity made aware of the content of the presentation prior to its delivery. " Oh really? The presentation just walked into the frat house during their initiation ceremonies and presented itself, untouched by human hands?
The fraternity brothers were shocked and appalled that the presentation appeared, and expressed their shock by blocking a Yale investigation of the presentation?
From the Bloomberg link…
Suspending a fraternity because a couple of members made inappropriate comments is one way to change a culture.