My daughter is keen on UK schools, wants to study Politics, Philosophy, and Economics (PPE), and will be applying to five schools via UCAS. She also loves Bowdoin (understands admission would be statistically unlikely) and can see herself at a couple other US schools. Bowdoin’s cost is ridiculous, but it does seem special and appears to attract hard workers who love to learn and want to make the world a better place (like her). My concern about going to a UK school is that, unless Oxford (again statistically unlikely) it would be less known to potential employers/US grad schools after graduation. Does the US State department want UK educated diplomats? Her contacts/friends/world would be UK based. How important is that? I can’t seem to find any information about Americans getting US jobs or admission to US graduate programs after attending a UK undergraduate school. Any information you have would be interesting data points to consider. Where she goes is up to her, but trying to make sure she makes an informed decision. Thank you!
Does she wish to and have the right to settle in the UK after school? As you note, most of her contacts will not be American. Some large American firms do interview there, but mostly for openings in theeir European offices. The timing of the school year is a bit problematic for American internships-they are in school later in the Spring and go back to school later in the Fall than US colleges. Also, there aren’t grades until the end, which can be sometimes difficult for some US employers who wish to see a gpa. However, it is very highly regarded and all the major finance and consulting firms will interview, at least for the London offices.
The US government hires interns and FT employees from every school; an Oxford degree would not necessarily help. Grad schools obviously would know the value of the degree.
I would probably go to a US college if you want to work in the US unless it’s Oxford.
US employers will obviously recognize it more than a UK university.
Plus, it’s much, much easier to go from US → UK than UK → US simply because of how recruiting works.
Not if you are considering the need for a visa to work in the UK. Graduating from a UK university automatically gives you the right to work there for 3 years. That’s not the case for a US university: the UK gives automatic working visas to graduates from a (slightly odd) list of top global universities, but that doesn’t include LACs like Bowdoin:
For OP: my S18 applied for PPE. Don’t underestimate how hard it is to get admitted to top UK schools for PPE. Got an interview but no offer at Oxford, rejected at LSE and UCL, unconditional offer at KCL. He had 4.0UW/1540 SAT/10 APs with 5 5s already and 4 more 5s predicted. Decided to stay in the US, where his applications were much more successful (admitted to 12 out of 13 schools).
Does she have a stronger interest in one of the PPE fields? If she is thinking grad school in Economics, she needs to be careful that the basic requirements for a PPE major can woefully under-prepare you for graduate school especially from the US schools.
There are dozens of colleges that are special and attract hard workers who love to learn and want to make the world a better place. DOZENS. So don’t get hung up on Bowdoin. It’s a fine institution but it is not unique in this way.
To answer your question- large US employers which have operations overseas are going to be familiar with overseas universities and their educational systems. I work in corporate recruiting and when I see an unfamiliar name of an institution- I call a colleague in that country (or the region if we don’t have an operation in that specific country) and ask. They can explain the percentage of students who graduate with honors or with specific awards; they can explain the transcript. Small employers? It starts to fall off pretty quickly. It is too hard to track the higher ed system all over the world-- especially since in some countries a “college” is really a high school, and everyone is graduating with an MA which is our equivalent of a Bachelor’s degree. You can’t expect a small company to invest the resources in a global deep dive.
Grad programs- they will have heard of UK institutions so I wouldn’t worry about that. Academia is pretty tight that way!
Diplomatic hiring is its own particular animal. Look at schools like Tufts Fletcher, Georgetown’s SFS to see how specialized these programs are. And diplomatic hires are a small percentage of the students that graduate from these programs. But the State Department hires many, many more people who are NOT diplomats-- with lots of different degrees and backgrounds.
I wouldn’t worry about the friends/contacts except that for diplomatic hires (and many other jobs in the federal government) she will need a security clearance, and the more time someone spends overseas (except in a military deployment) the more time-consuming it is to vet someone’s associates, contacts, etc.
For maximum flexibility in getting hired for “something government overseas” down the road (since she may not even be interested in the diplomatic corps once she learns what those people do), my top suggestion is to add a “strategic language” to whatever college program she does. The government has a list of strategic languages-- some you’d expect, some are surprises. But fluency can boost a person’s candidacy significantly. And it opens up a lot of cool roles that don’t get a lot of attention but are mission-critical. (someone is translating those encrypted messages from North Korea about their nuclear testing program, right?)
Your daughter also may want to consider colleges with an available major in public policy, which relies on the fields of political science, economics and philosophy for its foundation. With respect to liberal arts colleges in the U.S., schools such as Hamilton and Pomona College offer this major.
My daughter did PPE in Oxford. Graduated two years ago. Found a good job in UK in consulting and currently lives in London. She has a British boyfriend and tons of British friends from college. She also has pre-settled status so this takes care of the visa issues.
IMO, if the goal is finding work in US, it’s better to study here. The uk college system is very different and the adjustment is not easy. It’s difficult to get a first in a humanities field (if grad school is the goal). My d got the equivalent of a first in the economics courses but did less well in the politics courses. She is very happy there and does not want to come back
That may be true in US PPE courses, just like a basic US econ major is insufficient for grad school (you need to take math econ instead). However at Oxford most people drop one subject (usually Philosophy) after the first year, and economics in the UK is far more mathematical than a standard US economics course, and so much more attuned to what grad schools need. A first in PPE there is certainly enough preparation, although the typical UK path is to do a one year masters followed by a three year PhD: a friend went on to Stanford for a PhD in econ and was very successful. The problem is that as @Mumfromca points out, it’s extremely competitive, especially on the politics side, these are the best and most ambitious students in the country and some will end up becoming famous journalists and politicians.
Yes, Econ is math-heavy. There are no case studies or memorization. There is a lot of self-study during the year and in between quarters. The whole grade is based on 8 three-hour long exams at the end of the third year. As the Fiske guide put it “studying in the UK is not for the faint of heart”
Fellow students are selected solely based on academic aptitude in the subject and are very good. Malala was in the year above my daughter. She had to sit the entrance and exit exams like everybody else.
Unlike STem subjects, being admitted to the masters in Econ was very competitive and far from automatic. Hope this helps
And this is the challenge for Americans, because British kids have grown up with that system: your admission to university is conditional on A-level results at the end of high school which are similar 3 hour long summative exams covering anything and everything in two years of study. You don’t succeed in the UK without the ability to memorize lots of material and perform well on high stakes exams.
What do you mean by ‘don’t succeed’?
Don’t get into a top university. So you will only meet/be competing with British students at Oxford (or other good universities) who are good at memorization and taking exams
@MYOS1634 your thoughts?
For her career interests, I am pretty sure employers in the US will also know of Cambridge, LSE, and Imperial. (I am aware a student can only apply to one of Oxbridge.)
Please clarify, is she a US citizen? Or a dual national?
It seems she is aiming high. She needs to apply to more than a couple of other schools. If the other schools she has in mind are similar to Bowdoin, please understand that most, if not all, highly selective private colleges are super expensive.
We need more information to help you.
She’s a US citizen and will also apply to more achievable schools. Bowdoin is just her top US pick and the only school she has decided is worth the money to her (we have great instate options with different levels of selectivity). Because of her UK focus, I am just trying to get more information on how that may impact her longterm. Thank you!
The near term impact is that the calendars of the UK U’s don’t mesh with the typical internship/summer job cycle in the US. If she doesn’t plan on coming home during the summers that won’t be a problem, but if she does plan to be home for at least one summer, it is tricky making the calendar work. And for some jobs- paid staff on Capitol Hill for example- internship experience is important even if it’s not with the same branch of government or the same geography.
Long term likely not a huge issue but as I mentioned above, security clearances can take longer for someone who has spent large amounts of time overseas. Part of the focus of the clearance- has this person been radicalized by a terrorist organization or someone trying to actively undermine the security interests of the USA- become a little more complex the more time someone spends with friends, friends-of-friends, etc. who may be tangentially part of a group which will get higher scrutiny.
The UK calendar is not meaningfully different to attending many quarter-based universities in the US, where you finish in mid-June. Oxford’s end of term this year is Sat Jun 17, Stanford’s is Fri Jun 16.
Quarter-based students have some internship complications, but generally employers and think tanks who hire students from places like Stanford will have a second start date in mid to late June. My S did a think tank internship in DC that started on June 20th.
I will amend my comment. If your kid has enough get up and go to finish the term in the UK on June 17th and be moved in to a sublet and ready to start work on Monday the 20th (your dates may vary) then there is no issue.
For other kids- it is something to consider. Not a deal-breaker, but something to consider.
My kids did internships, paid jobs, fellowships, etc. during the summers. Some of them had flexibility (choice of start and end dates), some had no flexibility (orientation is assigned- so you don’t choose either the city or the start date) and some had flexibility on a case by case basis (finishing up an on-campus research job generally got you an exception; wanting to spend a week at the beach with your buddies after your last final generally did not). It varies.
Being overseas is just one more thing to consider.
I don’t know about the qualifications for diplomats, but a lot of Americans go to St. Andrews. Might be worth looking at. May be more well known over here in the US. They also have a little more flexibility in their studies there. The Scottish unis are 4 years rather than the 3 that is standard for English unis so more like a US university in that way, too.