<p>My sons' school also have essay writing in class. Sometimes the topics are given so that research can be done outside of class in preparation, but the precise question is not revealed. Sometimes the kids have no idea what the question will be. I feel this is valuable practice for the SAT2 Writing and the AP exams, and also gives the school and the kids an opportunity to see what the student does on his own.</p>
<p>Most of the instances of help here seem to be in regard to writing assignments. As I stated in a prior post, we never helped our son completing any homework assignments, writing or otherwise.</p>
<p>However our school system began teaching essay writing very early on, as I recall at the third grade level. Each year they were assigned a "major" paper and their teacher guided them each step along the way-selecting a topic, going to the library to find source material, preparing an outline, writing note cards, writing a first draft which was critiqued, writing a second draft which was also critiqued and preparing a final paper with bibliography which was graded.</p>
<p>By the time he reached HS he knew how to research and write a coherent paper. We saw no need to edit or critique because even the HS teachers normally assigned and graded first drafts. Not all papers were A's but he learned to write reasonably well. And frankly,the thought of critiquing short essays or his "college essay" would have never entered our mind until I started reading messages on CC.</p>
<p>With all this parental "help", is it any wonder that many colleges find it necessary to have "writing labs" to assist their ill-prepared and dependent students! Why don't we just admit to what they are-Remedial Writing Centers, a term that community colleges are not afraid to use. What a sorry state of affairs.</p>
<p>I view light editing and feedback on essays for high school in the same vein as I view dinnertime discussions on global studies questions. Providing an environment for thought. If I knew any math I would talk about math concepts. Novels they read we discuss. Writing is not something that can be discussed in general. Note that I said light editing, i.e. you note the issues you do not provide the solutions.</p>
<p>Sorry Alumother, editing an essay for your student is something they should be doing on their own. They will have to do it in college and perhaps when they join the workforce. If academic integrity is something valued, the paper they turn in should be their's alone, not done in conjunction with editorial work of a parent. </p>
<p>Is such a practice fair to the students who do not receive such additional "help"?? I think not.</p>
<p>In more blunt language parental editing is a form of cheating, plain and simple.</p>
<p>The rational for parents helping their students is that it is a practice that helps them to learn how to write. If that is the desire then teach them with work that will not be turned in for a grade. If it is too much trouble, then perhaps that is not the real reason??</p>
<p>How is light editing (proofreading and feedback) different when a parent does it as opposed to the AP teacher or GC? </p>
<p>When my son was applying to colleges he wrote an excellent first draft essay that was 3 times as long as what the colleges asked for. He asked for my help in reducing length. So I took the draft and red-penciled parts that I thought were repetitive or redundant. There were also self-serving expository parts, toward the end, that I saw as merely my son's attempt to incorporate mention of his achievements -- and I told him to take those out, that the ad com already had a list of his EC's, they didn't need to see it in again in the essay. </p>
<p>There were some parts that my son refused to take out despite my suggestions - he certainly did NOT accept or follow all my suggestions. I think he also had one or two teachers read the essay- as I recall he had at least one teacher express some reservations about the content. It was a "risk" essay in any case -- there was no way in the world I would have ever suggested the precise topic because of that. Even with my suggestions, the essay was about 1,000 words long - when the colleges were asking for essays between 250-500 words -- and my son wanted to use the same basic essay for all the colleges. </p>
<p>I certainly don't see that sort of help as cheating. In fact it boggles my mind that someone would call that "cheating" but not object to a kid getting help in class, from a teacher, from a gc, or from a privately retained counselor.</p>
<p>originaloog,</p>
<p>Thanks for the polite disagreement. Given the number of hours my daughter spent studying her junior and senior years, and also given that my husband and I both work fulltime, there was just no way in the world to do the editing work on anything other than the actual assignments. BTW I was actually the one policing the editing, to make sure my husband didn't get too enthusiastic and suggestive in his edits.</p>
<p>I have to say in addition, although this will sound obnoxious, my daughter's grades were from the beginning always 97, 99, 102, etc. She never got a final grade less than an A. In fact, she would get grades of A- on her papers and still her exams and class participation would bring the grade up.</p>
<p>Just for corollary evidence, she also never got a grade lower than A in any math or science class where I never helped because if I had even looked at her work I would have brought her grade down:).</p>
<p>If her performance had been otherwise, or I felt that our participation was causing any real distortion to her grades, we probably wouldn't have behaved as we did. If her performance were really an issue, in our case we would have gone to her teachers. But we're lucky in the high school she attends, class size is around 17 kids, enormous amount of personal attention, etc. I can imagine a situation in which I would have acted more along the lines you suggest.</p>
<p>Now, I do agree that it is unfair that my daughter gets to go to the school she goes to, and that she has two parents willing and with sufficient resources to dedicate themselves to her. But I am unwilling to normalize for that.</p>
<p>If a student attends a school with 30 students in the class and the
20/80 rule is in full effect, then parents are remiss if they do not go over the homework and teach the students.</p>
<p>I look over all homework and scan my D textbooks to see what she should
know. I give her quizzes according to what I read. This works remarkably well for us. We discuss why it is important to learn particular subject matter,real world examples, and what needs further study or identify it as busy work.</p>
<p>I believe the old adage that the Parent is the First Teacher and should remain very involved in what students are learning. I look over rough drafts and final papers to make sure D uses the writing style required of each teacher.</p>
<p>It is cheating if the parent does the work, otherwise it is your job as parent.</p>
<p>originaloog, you didn't notice what alumother said when she defined her contribution as noting the problems rather than providing the solutions.</p>
<p>As a teacher of writing, I can tell you that we try very hard to teach these people to workshop their essays and stories, and that means getting exactly that kind of input from other student writers and from TA's and teachers--and from anyone else wiling to read intelligently. Why not? If someone is willing and able to critique intelligently--NOT edit, proofread or write FOR one--then that is a real gift, not cheating. I welcome it in my students' work. I will do it for my son. I hope he will do it for his roommate and friends.</p>
<p>Yes, in school English classes (in all grades) class time is often spent reviewing and critiquing the work of other students. It is part of how writing is taught now. So there is nothing wrong with a parent doing this as well.</p>
<p>When I was in high school, my parents--both of them successful professional writers and editors (non-fiction)--did not review my assignments. However, on one memorable occasion, my mother disagreed with a teacher who'd given me an A, and called the school to say she thought it was C-level work and that my grade should be changed.</p>
<p>Many years later my D took third in a city-wide writing contest and I made the mistake of telling my mother. She demanded to see a copy of the story, which my D sent her. She got it back, corrected and with a comment saying it was "mediocre." (If you're wondering if I'm serious, she did this to my sister's D as well, ten years before she did it to mine, as I found out when I told my sister.)</p>
<p>Well, I guess there's success and then there's success.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sorry Alumother, editing an essay for your student is something they should be doing on their own. They will have to do it in college and perhaps when they join the workforce.
[/quote]
Beg to differ on this one. Good writers want feedback on their work as part of the writing process. When my colleagues and I wrote proposals and reports, we reviewed each others' work to make editorial and content suggestions. Read the author's notes on any good novel or work of non-fiction. You will see expressions of appreciation to (often several) editors, friends and family who commented on drafts. </p>
<p>Sure, the kid should edit his own work. But that is no substitute for another perspective, a different ear.</p>
<p>Peer review is a nice concept, with great variability in its usefulness. S' hs has often (always?) used this and I often see the "reviewed" draft as S asks for my comments. When he lucks into a good writer/careful reader for his peer reviewer, the comments are thought-provoking. When he doesn't, there might be no comment at all or an incorrect suggested grammar change, etc.</p>
<p>As an academic I find the attitudes and rationalizations here a bit shocking. Graded student work should be student work. Period. If the objective is to assist in the education of your student, help in editing, critiquing etc would be just as valid after the paper were graded and handed back to the student. In fact it might be more useful insofar as the student would have the benefit of the teacher's comment also. To do it before the work is turned in to be graded seems to me to be academically dishonest. Also, I did not read any mention of critiquing of ungraded writing assignments such as journals, recreational writing, etc. Again if the editing is only done for graded work one is obligated to ask why.</p>
<p>Here is the policy on academic honesty for a course my son recently took at Rensselaer. "All work you hand in must be written by you. You may ask questions to the TA or myself, as described below. If you did discuss concepts with ANYONE, you must explicitly state this fact on the work handed in, mentioning who you collaborated with, and what the nature of the collaboration was." The emphasized "ANYONE" was in the original policy.</p>
<p>Somehow I doubt that any papers completed with parental assistance were accompanied with a statement of collaroration.</p>
<p>I know that I am in the minority on this issue. However our children learn life lessons from us early and by our subtlest actions. We chose to let out teachers teach and let our son's successes, even if a B instead of an A, to be his alone.</p>
<p>orinaloog - I guess both goals could be accomplished (as far as the peer-review) by having students at school hand in first drafts with no review, so the teachers could grade them on their work without outside input, then have them reviewed by fellow students, parents, or whoever, and then turn the papers in a second time for another grade.</p>
<p>orignaloog - you make a valid point (post #73)</p>
<p>I guess originaloog has a point ... if the feedback, encouragement, etc. in regard to a child's writing is just about getting that child a better grade, then things are wrong. Wrong, wrong. But I don't think that's what any of the parents posting on this thread are doing AT ALL. </p>
<p>I know that, for me, my kids are on their own as far as grades go. (Since about fourth grade its been their business.) But that doesn't stop me from talking about economics, my belief in God, or, like alummother, global warming. OR the joy of a well-turned sentence.</p>
<p>Oh yes, and I grade the writing component of a business ethics course in college. I've caught students plagiarizing, and it is NOT tolerated. My goal is to help them become good writers so they won't ever be tempted to plagiarize or take the easy way out (that is, get someone else to do their thinking for them).</p>
<p>Isn't this all just common sense? Isn't this what everyone here is saying? Maybe I'm missing something?</p>
<p>originaloog -if I may ask, what level of academic are you and have you been in public schools lately, especially middle or high schools? Although I have not edited my children's work I have read my ADHD son's work outloud to him, which enables him to recognize errors or continuity issues that he does not "see" when he proofs his own work, and I clearly check to see that he has done his work although I do not know if he has done everything assigned. These practices were recommended by the neuropsychologist who evaluated him and both have been very helpful. He often reads his work outloud to himself but usually he does not read what he has actually written - he reads what he thinks he has written - very interesting - hearing it read from another person enables him to "see" the problems. Regardless, I can assure you that years have passed since I have seen more than a cursory comment on a written paper - I can't imagine how my son would learn from the few comments written. Simply getting a C or a D with two or three words attached is not helpful with writing. If teachers had time to teach writing, really critique it, demand rewrites, provide after school support for those needing it, etc. I imagine we would not be having this discussion because most of us have better things to do with our time but see that we cannot rely on the educational system to teach everything and to individualize.</p>
<p>The academic policy you cite is regarding the ownership of concepts. Indeed, to borrow someone else's concepts without giving credit is a serious ethical issue that gives rise to misrepresented data and concepts in research and ultimately journal articles - thus the serious concern with this issue. Also, definitely, the purchasing of papers on college campuses is clearly a concern. I don't think we are discussing the borrowing of Mom's concepts or research data here - just her proofreading or educational assistance. Also, I have to agree with MotherOfTwo that my sons barely have time to brush their teeth, never mind recreational writing. I wonder, would you consider it dishonest if I helped my son with his quadratic equations, which I have done, when his teacher's first pass at it was not enough for his comprehension? Should I pass up the opportunity to help my son learn quadratic equations before the test on Friday, knowing that the teacher only stays on Weds and it is now TH, because I am not the "teacher"? My son is enormously fortunate that I remember my quadratic equations and I do feel badly for the students whose parents don't - but that is an educational system problem. When I was a student, teachers were there every day after school for help - not just on Weds for Math, Th for English, etc. Kids had opportunity to seek help from teachers. My kids stay after for help and the teacher doesn't show - there goes a week - or the teacher has a meeting - oops another week.</p>
<p>Originaloog, I was taught very differently in college, by the very first prof. I had in my first research and writing course, first quarter, freshman year of college. He deliberately gave the class an assignment with a list of questions to be answered that was impossibly long in terms of the time provided. He used that as an objective demonstration of the most important lesson he was teaching: to collaborate. He told us that it was a waste of time for 200 students in class to work individually, when we could join forces, work together and use our collective brainpower to achieve so much more. I've often felt that was the most valuable lesson I was taught in 4 years of college -- "go it alone" mode certainly doesn't get you far in the workplace.</p>
<p>Ok, I know nothing about writing. It's my worst subject even in my native language. When I had to help my daughter with writing, I checked out tons of book about the writing process and editing/proofing is part of it. Eventhough, I cannot possibly help in anyway, she always corrects my English(lol), but I can help reading and suggesting things like this sentence/paragraph does not make sense,these arguments are not tight, etc.. because I can read, period.
Oh yeah, I don't care about grade so much, but I do care about learning. I'm one of those crazy moms that if she brings home 103/105(105 max),90-100 is an A, I would ask why she missed the 2 points. I did that not so much because of grade, but because I think if she did not understand something that causes her to miss that point, that would not be good, so I always suggest she find out from the teacher why.
I think before 9th grade, grade does not really matter, but it does matter whether the education foundation was solid, because some subjects are like building blocks, without a good understanding of the basic building blocks, further advance on these subjects can not be accomplished easily.</p>
<p>Rileydog, I am not a stodgy black and white guy, so I see nothing wrong in what you are doing to work with your son in overcoming his clinical disadvantages. </p>
<p>Calmom, I too had an entire year of senior project courses where we worked as teams to complete collaborative projects. Most teams divied up the work corresponding to members strengths or interest. This was okay because collaboration was a part of the profs expectations. This was the same in the case you cited too.</p>
<p>However individual assignments are another matter and learning by mistake is one of life's best lessons as is learning to struggle and persevere.</p>
<p>Had we not insisted on our son learnining these things for himself in elem, middle and high school, I have no doubt that he would have failed to succeed as he did in his DSA class last term after that D- on the first midterm. He sometimes had to buckle down back then, and after the D- just doubled his effort and gradually struggled his way to an A.</p>
<p>Lessons learned folks!!!!</p>