End of story: One person's Ivy experience

Parents Forum
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<p>I posted some time back on a thread discussing whether or not a top tier school was worth it. S had to decide among several excellent options, and I'm betting he would have had great experiences at any of them. Ultimately "we" went with what seemed the best fit. But I said the jury was still out on whether it would be worth it. Now that S#1 is graduating (May 15th - 16th!), I thought I'd share some of our experiences. This is one person's experience, at one school, but perhaps it might help someone on a fence somewhere. </p>

<p>School is Penn, major is economics (arts & sciences).</p>

<p>Postitives: *S was a Benjamin Franklin Scholar.<br>
*S has had opportunities to take myriad classes outside his field, just because he wanted to -- including foreign language, linguistics, music history, Wharton classes.
*He found a handful of extra-curriculars that fit him well.
*S has found a group of good friends "just like him" (which he didn't have in HS).
*S has had meaningful interactions, and developed friendships with, (and roomed with, by choice) people he respects, who think differently from him.
*He was able to do a study abroad.
*He received good financial aid.
*He has been taught by people well-known in their fields.
*He has participated in on-campus recruiting, job placement seminars, etc.
*He did an internship one summer. He thinks the Penn name helped him get it.
*He absolutely loves the school, still, and has four years of memories from attending his dream school.</p>

<p>Negatives: *The biggest is a fair amount of loans -- haven't added it up, but between his and ours, probably close to $60,000. (Penn's EFC was consistently higher than the FAFSA and other schools' EFC for us.)
*Concerning study abroad: The program he attended takes students from many different colleges. The set fee was lower than Penn's tuition, but we still had to pay Penn's tuition -- Penn paid the study abroad fees, and kept the balance. So students who attended the program from state schools and such paid much less for exactly the same program. Something to consider, if you're planning a study abroad.
*S has always wanted to work immediately after graduation, but we wanted him to apply to grad schools as well, to cover all bases. He ended up not applying to grad schools because he couldn't get teacher recommendations. He talked to the professors he thought knew him best, and they discouraged him. I think this is one of those areas where the school perhaps weights its grad-school acceptance rate by not letting students apply who aren't sure bets. They all seemed to advise him to work for a couple years first. (Then, those successes/failures don't show up on school statistics.)
(Lesson to take from this: If you know you want grad school right away, make sure you get into research, and develop a close relationship with a couple professors! And keep your grades way up!)
*We found many companies and grad schools don't even let you apply unless you have a 3.5 or better. (S's is just under that, which is above average for Penn.) It seems strange to us that a GPA would be considered evenly across the many different levels of schools out there. I know there is much said about grade inflation, and can see both sides, but this is one time where being a little fish in a big pond hurt him. </p>

<p>End of story: S has received two very good job offers (so far) in exactly the field and location he wanted. Have no idea if the caliber of school helped, or if this is just a season for needing entry level B.A. economists. Personally, I suspect the school name/reputation is probably helping. Not only will he have a job, but he will have a choice.</p>

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<p>Binx, if I were you I'd be walking on Cloud 9.....good for your son!</p>

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<p>Binx, thanks for your wisdom.. we are so worried about taking out such large loans for D's perfect "fit" but it seems that you felt that it was well worth it.. I especially liked the part where S found friends "just like him". I am hoping D has this experience as well. She seemed to pick up on it right away at Rice (her chosen school).. "I just felt like I belonged there".. Keep us posted on S's continued successes. You should be so proud.</p>

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<p>binx,</p>

<p>Congratulations on your son's success. Q: What is a Benjamin Franklin Scholar and what does that do for the student?</p>

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<p>binx that was very helpful, thanks.</p>

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<p>I am reading this with great interest since Penn is my D's first choice right now. If I may ask another question: Is it possible the profs discouraged him from grad school since they sensed a lack of enthusiasm on his part? It certainly seems that he has the background for it based on his academics.</p>

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<p>That study abroad funding is a real rip-off by private colleges. I do not know how they get away with it. I did want to report that my d. attended Mount Holyoke and took her third-year abroad in South Africa ( Univ. of Natal and Fort Hare). Mount Holyoke let her take a year of abscense and did not charge the private school tuition and gave her full credit. I thank their administration .</p>

<p>The year abroad, including travel and my visit :) saved us over $17,000.</p>

<p>Chuck</p>

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<p>All: Thanks for the kind words. We are extremely happy, albeit a bit nostalgic that he has done so well without us!</p>

<p>Audiophile: A Benjamin Franklin Scholar is Penn's honors program, offered to the top 6% of incoming freshmen. It has its own advising department, requires special seminars, has research opportunities, etc. Students can earn a BFS certificate, or a seal on their diploma, by completing certain requirements. It was a lot of work, and many of the seminars were not ones that particularly interested my S. He ended up participating minimally (which was still a lot of work.)</p>

<p>And yes, I think you may be right about the grad school issue. I think the professors were thinking, here's a kid who has done no research, doesn't seem inclined to want to teach, and is quite open about wanting to get into public sector economics / public policy.</p>

<p>They asked him detailed questions about what he wanted to do with his degree, and highlighted a handful of "the best" programs around the country that seemed specifically tailored to his interests. I really appreciated that information! But then, they told him they didn't think he would get into these programs at this point, and it wasn't worth his time to go to "lesser" programs. They told him to work a couple years and then apply. I do think it was probably good advice, but at the time, it was very discouraging to him.</p>

<p>Isandin: S#2 considered Rice (for music). It seems to be an excellent school, and we would have been very happy to have him there. Best wishes to your D. I have to admit, I am not sure I would have been as happy at Penn as S was -- I am glad we allowed him to follow his heart! (There's always the point that, if they picked it, they can't blame us! :) )</p>

<p>Mcgilldad: Wish Penn did that!!!</p>

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<p>binx - For what its worth, my son is an econ major and looked into the possibility of grad school (but probably will not pursue that path after all.) He showed me some websites with general advice about PhD programs in economics, written by reputable people in the field. It did say that the field is very competitive and that it is robalby not very worthwhile to go to programs that are not considered "the best". And it seemed that the programs are almost totally oriented towards preparing students for teaching (Maybe some are geared to public policy careers but it wasnt mentioned in the info my son showed me). It warned that it is very difficult to get a position even after completing grad school. So, I agree that your son was given good advice, but I can see how it would have been discouraging for him to hear it.</p>

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<p>binx, you are lucky on the grad school advice. For lots of kids, grad school is where you end up 'cause you haven't figured the rest out yet... going to school is a natural activity since you've been doing it for 17 years, so why not? It's a time-consuming and expensive summer camp for lots of post-grads.</p>

<p>Work experience only makes you more valuable to grad schools, not less. That's why I chuckle when folks here brag about the % of kids at one school who go on to grad school vs. others as being somehow a mark of superiority... it often reflects poor advising, from both professors and career services, who don't take the time to weed out the hyper-motivated for grad school from the "what the hell do I do with my life now" kids.</p>

<p>You should be busting with pride. Two job offers and it's only April!</p>

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<p>It sounds like your son got exactly what he wanted out of the school. You can't ask for better than that!</p>

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<p>binx~</p>

<p>Thank you so very much for sharing your son's experience, both positive and negative, at UPenn. UPenn is among my son's final choices! I am happy to hear that overall, you think this unique experience was worth it for him. You must be so very proud now that he will be graduating in just a few short weeks!! Congratulations to your son on a challenging job very well done! ~berurah</p>

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<p>"We found many companies and grad schools don't even let you apply unless you have a 3.5 or better. (S's is just under that, which is above average for Penn.)" Can you say more about this? Doesn't it favor students from schools with grade inflation? What sorts of companies are you speaking of? </p>

<p>Thanks for your candid post. It sounds as though your son has been willing to embrace the challenges of his program and has done very well.</p>

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<p>Given his interest in economics and public policy, Harvard''s Kennedy School of Government could be a great fit for him. Their MPP (Master's in Public Policy) typically does not admit students right out of college--they expect at least a couple years of real world experience after college. </p>

<p>The other top policy schools are likely to be similar. You need more than just "book smarts" to be a thoughtful scholar of public policy.</p>

<p>There are some non-selective programs in public policy that may not be able afford to be so choosy, and they may be willing to take master's students right out of college, but the top ones don't.</p>

<p>The advice he got from profs was right on the mark. The advice they gave should have been the same even if he'd had a 4.0.</p>

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<p>My D has decided on Penn as well. She was nominated to be a University Scholar which is a special program to encourage undergraduate research.<br>
After all the Penn bashing I have seen on the various forums it is nice to have such a positive report. After visiting it again for Penn previews we were very impressed. We were able to meet with staff from two different departments both of whom were quite helpful and personable. I really think Penn is on the upswing what with their new President and all. If they can improve their housing a little bit and work on the crime
issues in West Philly I think the school will be even more attractive to applicants in the future</p>

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<p>Yes, Aparent5, I do think it favors kids at schools with grade inflation -- or lower standards. It makes me want to stomp my feet and cry, "It's not fair!" I didn't really keep track of the jobs he wasn't eligible for. But...</p>

<p>The Federal Government, for example, has an "Outstanding Scholars" employment program, that has many nice opportunities: "Applicants must be college graduates and have maintained a grade point average (GPA) of 3.5 or better on a 4.0 scale for all undergraduate course work, or have graduated in the upper 10 percent of their graduating class or major university subdivision ..."
<a href="http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/EI22.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/EI22.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Here's another job I found on a quick Google search:
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation ... "B.A. or B.S. degree in economics (with a GPA above 3.5)"</p>

<p>As for graduate schools, one I remember in particular that my son was interested in was London School of Economics. They required 3.5 or higher from any American College or University. I remember being frustrated because LSE couldn't possibly know how to compare the different US schools.</p>

<p>Motheroftwo, Blossom, & Homeschoolmom: This information you are giving me is right in line with what his teachers seemed to be saying. I wish I'd known it sooner. I would have bugged him less about it. It seems I know many students as well who go to graduate school because nothing else looks good at the moment, and I saw it as a safety net. S has said all along he felt he needed to work at least a few years to determine a particular area of interest that he would want to pursue; graduate programs are so specific. But he also says he will be perfectly happy working without an advanced degree if he gets a job he likes; he doesn't "need" more school for the sake of a couple more initials.</p>

<p>As I was writing this, he happened to call! Wanted to discuss his job choices. Is quite torn between them. I feel for him, but I am still happy for the position he is in.</p>

<p>Congratulations to your D, Saintofme. I agree about the dorms; my S is a real "guy" and wasn't bothered at all by them. I was horrified. As to crime, S has lost two radios from his car (false sense of security the second time, as he was in the airport parking garage.) But on campus, he has had no problems at all. It's in its own little haven. But that "edge" of living in a big city is what he likes. Grew up in Atlanta, and is now headed for DC. Nearly went crazy visiting us in our tiny German town.</p>

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<p>Saintofme,</p>

<p>I received an advanced degree from Penn over 20 years ago. West Philly is like Mayfield (from the old Leave it to Beaver) compared to what it used to be!</p>

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<p>With the rate of gentrification ever-increasing in west philly I think that in 20 years from now it won't be recognizable. Check this out:</p>

<p>Penn Announces $100 Million Mixed-Use Development in University City
March 18, 2005</p>

<p>Philadelphia- The University of Pennsylvania and Hanover RS Limited partnership of Texas will develop a $100 million mixed-use building of luxury apartments, retail shops and a parking garage at the northwest corner of 34th and Chestnut streets in University City. The University currently operates a surface parking lot at that location and will lease the land to Hanover for 65 years.</p>

<p>The $100 million project will be seven or eight stories and include 295 luxury apartments with approximately 325,000 gross square feet, a five-story parking structure with approximately 320 parking spaces and, on the first floor, approximately 26,000 square feet of commericial and retail space.</p>

<p>"University City continues to attract new development, new businesses and new residents to one of Philadelphia's most vibrant neighborhoods," said Omar H. Blaik, senior vice president of facilities and real estate services at Penn.</p>

<p>"This project is part of our East Campus strategy and is indicative of Penn's commitment to engage locally in building communities and investing in job creation and economic development."</p>

<p>The groundbreaking will be in September. Completion of the project is expected by late 2007.</p>

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<p>Binx-</p>

<p>From one proud Penn mom (beginning fall '05) to another, thanks for the inside scoop on getting into grad programs and the financial background on study abroad. Sounds like your son made the most of his time at Penn. </p>

<p>Where did your son live during each year? When did he move off campus?</p>

<p>Saintofme-
Can you expand on your comments about housing? What options did you find most appealing and which did you find least appealing? My son wants to live in the Quad freshman year and thinks "a highrise" would be ok too. I've heard good thing about Hill.....and some prefer it to the Quad because of the facilities (cafeteria). </p>

<p>If I recall correctly, from my days of visitng friends at Penn, the Quad dorm rooms ranged from very small to very large with a wall of windows. </p>

<p>Is your D going to enroll in a residential college?</p>

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<p>Thats interesting about study abroad. My D. is going to a state university and I mentioned she might like to go abroad for a term. She had already looked into it and I was surprised when she told me it cost THE SAME as regular tuition!
So I see that its like that everywhere even if it would have worked out cheaper to go abroad in the school you went too!
Fortunately for us it will be very reasonable if she elects to do that.</p>