Engineering Career Worth it?

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>I don't post very often on these forums, but for this thread, I feel uniquely qualified to lend some perspective.</p>

<p>Why? I'm a recent Engineering graduate who is engaged to a recently hired High School teacher.</p>

<p>I would tend to agree with BOTH sakky and KandKsmom/aibarr on this issue. They actually both have made valid points. Teachers have to work very hard, it's certainly not all <em>roses</em>, but in some parts of the country, it's certainly not all that bad either. Particularly here in western Pennsylvania.</p>

<p>In year two, my fiance is set to make $40,000 BEFORE supplemental contracts (last year she made $3000 more in supplementals, next year that number will drop to $2000 because she's not taking one of them), despite the fact that our Cost of Living is well below the national average. The COL in Pittsburgh is quite competitive, and if you head about 30 minutes to an hour north, into Westmoreland/Armstrong county, it's even significantly lower. $40,000 isn't bad money around here. Not bad at all. Lots of people in this half-rural half-suburban environment don't make 40 grand a year, despite having worked at their jobs for 20+ years.</p>

<p>I, on the other hand, started work 4 weeks ago at 56 K a year, complete with a signing bonus, a corporate card, flex time, a strong 401K similar to the one aibarr described (company match up to 6%, with several different investment options for me to choose from), a few cool pre-tax options such as a Health Care Savings Account, and a vacation package I was very happy about. I also have opportunity for greater earnings on any given paycheck; if I work more than 44 hours in a work (first 4 after 40 are "gratus"), I'm paid extra for my extra efforts. 56K is certainly greater than 40K, but I also don't get 3 months paid vacation in the summer, nor is my healthcare/vision/dental package anything like my fiances. In fact, once married, I'm going on HER healthcare and dental coverage, because it's so disgustingly better than mine.</p>

<p>Seriously, here in Western PA, teachers have AMAZING healthcare plans. They can't be beat by much of anyone's except Doctors and Pastors (one of the few perks to being a minister, other than <em>hopefully</em> loving your job). My fiances is so strong, the school district is actually willing to pay her more than $5,000 for her turn it down.</p>

<p>But I can also tell you that things are not so good for teachers in other parts of the nation. In some places in Ohio (where my girlfriend attended college for her undergraduate degree), starting salaries are more like $25,000, which isn't very <em>comfortable</em>, regardless of how cheap COL may be in the area. And that's just one example. Teaching positions in some of the other Southern States that we looked into also had similarly abysmally low starting salaries (we looked at some positions in parts of the Carolina's, Tennessee, West Virginia, and a few other places... not to say that's indicitave of ALL teaching positions in those states, just some of the ones we looked at). So, depending on your geographic preference/location, a teaching position can vary wildly based on what kind of lifestyle you can lead as your just getting out of school.</p>

<p>These people throwing around these numbers also need to realize what kind of an impact COL will have on you as well. In downtown New York City or San Francisco, for example, $50,000 won't go very far, because everything is so very expensive in those places. But, outside of some more reasonably priced cities (for me, cities like Pittsburgh and Columbus immediately come to mind, because they're close to us), $50,000 will go a pretty long way. For us, we're quite lucky in that, in our first year of marriage, it looks like we're going to be earning about $98,000 a year combined while living in either Armstrong or Westmoreland county, two semi-rural places where COL is noticably lower than Pittsburgh's already lower-than-national-average COL. But, again, I'm also quite familiar with the unenviable position teachers are in in other states, where starting salaries look more like $27,000 a year and less like $38,000 a year.</p>

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<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I just wanted to add my thoughts to this thread. I'm one semester from graduating in electrical engineering and, as of yet, I haven't applied for any jobs or post-graduate research scholarships. My advice is to *do what you enjoy<a href="or%20at%20least%20think%20you%20will%20enjoy">/i</a>. If you don't have a passion for engineering you probably won't survive the course and if you do you may end up in my position where you just don't have the motivation to do 3 years of work experience to become "a real engineer". Or, worse still, you'll survive the course, find yourself in a very tight financial situation (e.g. married with children) and be forced to into a job you don't really like just because you need the money.</p>

<p>If you do have a passion for engineering, my advice is to be very skeptical about some of the posts here and go for it anyway. The suggestion coming from some people that teaching is an easy and lucrative ride doesn't seem to be substantiated by any data. According to the Buereau of Labor Statistics the</a> teaching profession maxes out at around $70k that's only</a> slightly above the median for most engineers.</p>

<p>The notion that being an investment banker is a really good deal for those who love engineering-like stuff seems a bit far fetched too because those jobs are extremely competitive. Where I come from (Australia) the top-earning investment bankers have to work damn hard (nights and all) and really exercise their contacts. Plus a graduate degree is usually necessary. On that note I would point out that, where I come from, a graduate degree in finance is far easier to obtain with an engineering, maths or computer science degree than anything else short of an actual finance degree. To put that in perspective, I can get a really good graduate finance degree in one-and-a-half years compared to three for a law degree or four for a medical degree.</p>

<p>Law and medicine seem like good jobs but even in those areas you can find yourself hating your career and in the United States they require an extra few years of hard work at graduate schools with competitive entry scores. In the end, I really believe in doing what you love and then taking the time when you're a little older to collect your thoughts and decide what to do from there. If you love engineering/art/science/commerce, and you do well in your chosen subject because of it, that can only open doors for you if you decide to change directions with a graduate degree from another area.</p>

<p>I would also like to add there are some really encouraging factors for engineering - top amongst them are the fact that U.S</a>. graduates in engineering peaked in the mid-1980's and despite a growing population have actually stayed well below that peak ever since meaning there is a glut of engineers from 20 years ago who will retire 20 years before you do.</p>

<p>I welcome any thoughts from other members of this forum on my post. </p>

<p>Alkine.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I would tend to agree with BOTH sakky and KandKsmom/aibarr on this issue. They actually both have made valid points. Teachers have to work very hard, it's certainly not all <em>roses</em>, but in some parts of the country, it's certainly not all that bad either. Particularly here in western Pennsylvania.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
The suggestion coming from some people that teaching is an easy and lucrative ride doesn't seem to be substantiated by any data. According to the Buereau of Labor Statistics the teaching profession maxes out at around $70k that's only slightly above the median for most engineers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, let me clarify. I never said (or at least, I never meant), that teaching was a good deal for ALL people.</p>

<p>However, I believe that teaching is certainly a very good deal for some people, and in particular for those people who, #1, happen to teach in a district that pays well and offers tenure, and #2, who are incompetent/lazy. I can think back to my high school. While there were certainly some good teachers, there were others who, frankly speaking, were extremely lazy and downright incompetent. But, they had tenure, which basically made them unfireable. If they held a private-sector job, I believe they would be fired for incompetence But because they had tenure, they kept their job year after year. They're still there today. Hence, teaching is an absolutely fantastic deal for them (although obviously a very bad deal for the students). Teaching is one of the few jobs in the world in which, once you get tenure, you can perform your job poorly year after year, and never get fired. Sadly that means that teaching tends to attract the lazy and the incompetent. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that ALL teachers are lazy and incompetent. Like I said, some of them are extremely hard-working and capable. But the truth is, sadly, many others are not, and they keep their jobs anyway.</p>

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<p>I often wonder why the teaching profession does not police itself better. Those lazy and incompetent members just drag the whole profession down. Why on earth do unions want to protect them???</p>

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<p>Lfk725, I suspect it's because the lazy/incompetent members DEMAND that the unions protect them. When I say lazy/incompetent, I mean in the sense that they are lazy/incompetent at teaching (which is their job). What I have found is that often times those teachers who are quite lazy and incompetent at teaching are actually extremely skilled at playing politics and manipulating the union and school district to get what they want. In other words, these teachers are actually extremely skilled and hard-working, but not at the things that they are purportedly hired to do. Instead, they direct their attention and talent to politicking within the union. </p>

<p>I have often wondered how much better my school and other schools would be if these particular teachers would spend less time manipulating their union and more time actually trying to become good teachers.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I believe that teaching is certainly a very good deal for some people, and in particular for those people who, #1, happen to teach in a district that pays well and offers tenure, and #2, who are incompetent/lazy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Or how about #3: People who genuinely enjoy making a difference, and love what they do, and feel like they're helping others and giving back to the community, and are willing to make less money to do it.</p>

<p>"Incompetent/lazy"... wow... sounds like quite an elitist attitude you seem to have.</p>

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<p>yeah-that was low.</p>

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<p>Okay, here is a twist on the teacher union issue. How about unions for healthcare workers? There are many! Who would like to be hospitalized knowing that a union is protecting YOUR incompetent/lazy healthcare providers? The stakes are a little higher here.</p>

<p>We had a problem with a teacher this year and went through the normal procedure of talking to the teacher, and then the principal. When the principal asked the teacher to come to discuss the problem between the two of them, guess who the teacher brought along? The union representative! Clearly, the point was that the teacher wanted whatever "protection" the union could offer.</p>

<p>Neither teachers nor healthcare workers have poor or dangerous working conditions, nor are the members uneducated and in need of representation. I have often thought that some teachers I know would be unceremoniously fired if they worked in the real world.</p>

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<p>bump........................</p>

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<p>I will second what psuKinger said about the importance of benefits. Teachers in my area only recently began paying a tiny token amount for their healthcare (which is quite comprehensive). You cannot overlook the importance of this kind of benefit. Also, if you are lucky enough to work for a company who matches 401K contributions, always put in the max. Although it may be given in the form of company stock, you can usually sell that stock and reinvest it as you wish eventually (age 50?). That's the easiest money you will ever make!</p>

<p>Sorry. I don't mean to disparage psuKinger's fiancee or other teachers. But, even though my own dear sister is a teacher, I must agree with sakky that teachers' unions tend to breed and even encourage mediocrity. It is one of the few jobs that offer guaranteed raises and protection from discipline, no matter how poor the performance.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Sorry. I don't mean to disparage psuKinger's fiancee or other teachers. But, even though my own dear sister is a teacher, I must agree with sakky that teachers' unions tend to breed and even encourage mediocrity.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Don't worry about it, man. No offense taken. I understand the thinking/logic behind the comments. Besides, I'm sure you'd agree that not EVERY teacher is incompetent/lazy. Some are excellent, and in fact partially responsible for making me the engineer I am today. But some certainly do look at teaching as their one opportunity to (eventually) make $60K a year while taking 3 months off and grading nothing but scantrans the other 9 months.</p>

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<p>LOL! Yeah, some are like that! But your are right about those excellent and inspirational teachers. I know my kids each had a few of them. It's really too bad that they get lumped together with all of the others. I guess the other bad thing about teachers' unions is that those outstanding individuals are not rewarded via raises and promotions as they would be if they were working in private industry. As an engineer, you are much more likely to reap the fruits of your labor.</p>

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<p>LFK is right - the bad teachers are well-insulated from job pressures, while good teachers have little incentive (except for their own desire) to do their jobs well. They don't get additional compensation, benefits, or rewards for excelling. IMO, the union has outlived its usefulness, at least in regards to the educational field.</p>