engineering: do female students have an advantage? 0.0

<p>Hi! Just curious about this, as i really really hope to get into cornell engineering. </p>

<p>btw, chance me?</p>

<p>Profile: female international student (not applying for aide hah)</p>

<p>SAT scores: R790 M800 W740<br>
SAT2: 2400 (mathsII, french, chem)
AP: Physics C E&M, phy C mechanics, chemistry, calculus BC, all 5s (our school doesn't offer AP classes, but some of us thought to try 0.0 all of us got 5s for everything we signed up for so...T.T)
school grades: decent, consistent
rank: thank goodness school doesn't rank. But i'm about 6/28 in my class, good class though. school has 1200++ students so...
eca: vice chair of a club, fencing, french connection, band
others: I have a gold in a national level olympiad, attempted several science projects.
various scholarships/ academic prizes
teacher recs: i kinda sleep+ stone in class but should be decent
essays: not going to be great
hook: being a female student? Does this help?? >< ??</p>

<p>Admits to cornell for our school decreased by 70% over 5 years so things are not looking great. T.Tand its increasingly hard for international students so im obsessively worried ><</p>

<p>Urghhh cornell engineering urghhhh</p>

<p>i was looking through the thread on admits for the class of 2014, i see perfectly strong local (i.e. american) students getting rejected! 0.0 this is terrible we all thought locals should have it easier T.T</p>

<p>but it seems female students have it easier than the boys, is this true? 0.0</p>

<p>Not that it matters to know but urghh the anxiety T.T</p>

<p>What’s your uw and w GPA? Yes, women Engineering applicants DO have an advantage, over their male counterparts, providing your stats/resume is close in comparison. Your SAT scores would be competitive for any top-tier Engineering school.</p>

<p>@ jshain: Our country’s under the british system (A levels) so no GPA</p>

<p>my grade’s AAAAB distinction. i’d say about 60 out of 1200++ ppl in my school gets that kind of grades or better. </p>

<p>last year 24 ppl got into HYPMS (may have overlaps)
20 into cornell last year (again, there’ll be repeats) , 90+ in 2003, so there’s a steep downward trend</p>

<p>so i hope being international + being female will kinda neutralize each other? ><</p>

<p>…admissions stats for this years freshman show COE to have the highest acceptance rate for females of any of Cornell’s colleges…35% for females compared to 17% for males.</p>

<p>yes being female helps</p>

<p>You credentials are excellent. Your chances of getting in are very high. This has nothing to do with your gender or the fact that you are not seeking financial aid. There is no truth to truth to the fact the either of these factors somehow influences admission. Females in general are less inclined to choose engineering as a major but of those who do their average stats. (SAT and GPA) are much higher than the males from the same cohort.</p>

<p>Here is a engineering class profile from last year</p>

<p>[Cornell</a> Engineering : Class Profile](<a href=“http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/prospective/undergraduate/about-engineering/facts/class-profile.cfm]Cornell”>http://www.engineering.cornell.edu/prospective/undergraduate/about-engineering/facts/class-profile.cfm)</p>

<p>Make sure you write compelling essays though.</p>

<p>being female definitely helps. this is true for many other engineering schools as well such as MIT. the financial aid factor im not sure. you can request aid and they can just accept you and give you none lol</p>

<p>@ AnbuItachi,</p>

<p>I hope you will agree if we are going to have a discussion lets have a fact based discussion rather than one based on opinions.</p>

<p>Engineering has been a male bastion for ages just like nursing has been to females. It is well documented that women in general have a negative bias towards engineering as compared to some other fields. So, women applying to engineering are highly motivated with a positive bias towards the field in other words a self selected group. </p>

<p>To make my point simply, lets say Cornell Engineering requires a SAT (CR+M) of 1450 for a realistic chance to get in. Male to female application ration to Cornell engineering is roughly 3:1 due to the above mentioned negative bias. But, the distribution of SAT for male applicants is between 1200 and 1600 whereas for females it is between 1350 and 1600. Both these factors contribute in a higher acceptance rate for females. The bar is never low for females.</p>

<p>Now, speaking on MIT, please read this [MIT</a> Admissions | Blog Entry: “Uh-oh”](<a href=“http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/life/women_at_mit/uhoh.shtml]MIT”>http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/life/women_at_mit/uhoh.shtml)</p>

<p>There are a couple of other highly competitive engineering programs that commissioned similar studies and arrived at similar conclusions.</p>

<p>Back to Cornell, when you look at average GPAs achieved by females at Cornell Engineering it is statistically higher than males. Just go to Engineering advising and ask. They might tell you off the record ;-)</p>

<p>Additionally, financial aid situation does not influence admission decision in any way at Cornell. In fact, the admission committee does not even get to evaluate the financial part.</p>

<p>Girls have a 45% admission rate to Cornell, guys have a 22% admission rate, based on the statistics from a few years ago. </p>

<p>Interpret this data however you choose.</p>

<h1>10 does not smell right to me, data is here, knock yourselves out:</h1>

<p><a href=“http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000003.pdf[/url]”>http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000003.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>that blog says it does not discriminate. the key word is discriminate. she not only mentioned that women does not have it easier, but also that asians does not have it harder. the first one is much harder to prove, since its still in its early years. unless we know the average gpa of acceptances for the schools, we probably wont know for sure. From my HS, it was pretty much accepted that women have a higher shot at getting into a good engineering program than men. Even the college advisors mentioned this. One reason they may have said this is because I come from a very intense high school (a school that sends ~50 students to cornell each year) and the women are very qualified. Even so, girls who were accepted by the top engineering schools had lower stats than the guys who were accepted, and it’s not because of EC or w/e, the guys had better ones with all their awards and jobs and services. A girl with a 93 gpa would have a chance, but a guy wouldn’t unless hes won a nobel prize or something. though for the entire population, the difference in stats may be minimal. i dont have data on that so i can’t make a conclusion</p>

<p>and the no discrimination against asians part from the blog is just ■■■■■■■■. people just dont want to admit that there is discrimination going on. they only want to think of it as “helping another group in need”, instead of thinking of the other side of it. whether its cause of sex or race, its very hard to get people to admit these things. no school will say they discriminate. they may say they are selective, but definitely not discriminate. </p>

<p>“Translating the advantages into SAT scores, study author Thomas Espenshade, a Princeton sociologist, calculated that African-Americans who achieved 1150 scores on the two original SAT tests had the same chances of getting accepted to top private colleges in 1997 as whites who scored 1460s and Asians who scored perfect 1600s.”</p>

<p>There are a lot of proof on stuff like these including research articles. However those who are against it will just ignore it and say something like “its not all about the grades”, which is true but nothing will ever be proven cause there’ll always be something else left out. Grades/sat is the most important factor and definitely holds weight.</p>

<p>Therefore, i doubt the validity of the blog, esp since its just someones opinion</p>

<p>I feel the discussion of affirmative action for women in STEM (science/technology/engineering/mathematics) careers is veering off of from the OP’s question, which was mostly about her chances at Cornell. However, hypocrite that I am, I want to say something potentially radical:</p>

<p>So what if women with lower stats are getting in because they are women?</p>

<p>Admittedly I’m bringing some personal bias to the table, since I’m female and I plan on majoring in CS, but in brief: the social barriers that girls these days experience make it almost prohibitively difficult to enter STEM fields. I don’t believe there is any active discrimination at play, but when you grow up in a culture where people honestly believe girls are better at humanities and boys are better at science and math because that’s just how biology works, or boys are better at dealing with numbers and being logical and rational because that’s just how biology works…</p>

<p>Add to the mix the fact that girls in general underestimate their abilities, that there are few images in the media of girl geeks although there are plenty of guy geeks, that STEM careers are seen as socially isolated and people in the field as dorky loners…add the singular experience of being one of two or three girls in an AP CS class and getting the feeling that if you are incompetent or a failure that will be representative of your gender, or simply the experience of being a minority in the classroom…</p>

<p>These are invisible pressures. But they are there and they are significant.</p>

<p>I’d like to believe (although I have no data to back this up) that the women who do end up as engineering majors want it more. Because many have encountered these barriers and have still chosen to be engineers.</p>

<p>I do, however, have numerous studies saved to my hard drive on the effects of society and stereotypes and the media on girls choosing to be engineers, and the disproportionate gender ratios in girls taking technology classes or pursuing higher education in STEM careers, &c.</p>

<p>I have the feeling this may be a sticky topic to discuss.</p>

<p>@Greekfire:
Preach on, sister.</p>

<p>I agree wholeheartedly.</p>

<p>Boys ARE actually better at science and math, especially at the upper range of ability. Sorry. </p>

<p>And social barriers? There are scholarships all over the place for females going into math-related fields.</p>

<p>@wintergreen @AnbuItachi,</p>

<p>If your hypothesis of boys being actually better at science and math and at Cornell deserving boys lose spots to girls is true then it is a pity once they get to Cornell boys lose their abilities as a group and are consistently score a lower average GPA than Cornell girls.</p>

<p>@monydad, thanks for the pdf. It proves my point. A good comparison would be to look at arts and science line where applicant pop for males and females is almost the same and when you look at acceptances they are also reasonably same. </p>

<p>In the case of engineering it mirrors one story I read a long time ago about two merchants who go to market to sell precious stones. One loads up his trunk with diamonds, rubies, and other semi precious stones while the other takes mostly high quality diamonds. When they get to the market, the first merchant is furious when he sees that the store buys most of the second merchants possessions and a few of his. He demands an answer to why even though he brought in so many variety stones a smaller percentage was picked compared to the second merchant. The store owner replies,“This is a diamond market. We buy only diamonds. The second merchant had a far higher percentage of them.”</p>

<p>@2coll: Can you post the links to where your statistics come from? Though they are plausible, I would like to seem them in context. I find it a little suspect that no one with under a 1200 SAT score even applied and that there would be a 150 point difference in the lowest score based on sex.</p>

<p>Your comment about the test score range doesn’t explain much anyway because we know the highest score will always be 1600 and the lowest score doesn’t necessarily correspond to the mean score at all. Overall, I think the assertion that the average female applicant is so much better than the average male applicant is pretty tenuous without strong evidence. We are talking about a 17% vs. 35% acceptance rate, which is an astronomical gap.</p>

<p>@Greekfire: I am going to qualify my comments by saying: I am not pursuing STEM and I am not female. I cannot relate to your personal experiences. However, I think you are exaggerating the severity of the situation.</p>

<p>It is in no way true that, “the social barriers that girls these days experience make it almost prohibitively difficult to enter STEM fields.” The fact that COE accepts female applicants at twice the rate it accepts male applicants indicates that this couldn’t be further from the truth.</p>

<p>The fact that female students are a minority in science classes is simply an issue of interest. I know several girls who chose to take Choir over AP Physics this year who would have been in the top of the class, and as a result there are more males in the class (and more males receive the top grades). Did they do so because of invisible social pressures? Are the other girls in the class who aren’t doing as well at a disadvantage because of their sex? Hardly. It’s extremely unfortunate that this happens because I view it as a loss of potential, but it is entirely their personal choice.</p>

<p>The fact is, science is not as popular an interest for females as it is for males. Personality types that are associated with interests in science and math tend to occur more often in males. Certainly the media does portray fewer women in science, but there is no cultural bias against women on an individual basis. The main problem is fostered at an early age and cannot be solved through affirmative action later on.</p>

<p>Affirmative action is not necessary: women who have the talent can succeed just as well as males without affirmation action. The reason that fewer do is very likely because they simply choose to do something else. More importantly, and I cannot stress this enough, the is no practical difference between affirmation action in favor of one party and active discrimination against all others. If female students are being accepted to COE with lower stats than male applicants, and based on the extreme difference in the acceptances rate I think this is highly like, than the program losses out on better students and better students lose opportunities.</p>

<p>If the acceptance rates were the same and the percentage of female students in the program were much lower, it would not indicate bias against females. It only would indicate that fewer females were interested in the first place. Accepting more female students is not going to help COE get the top female students that are missing. The reason they’re missing isn’t because they had lower stats because of some imaginary discrimination, it’s because they didn’t apply for engineering. The College of Arts and Sciences gets more female applicants than male applicants and accepts them at roughly the same percentage. A great many top LAC’s get far more female applicants than males.</p>

<p>I strongly believe that more women should be encouraged to pursue STEM simply to benefit society as a whole by bringing more of the top minds into practical fields. However, affirmative action is absolutely not the way to do it. All it does is reinforce the notion that women really are at a disadvantage while discriminating against male applicants in favor of women who wouldn’t have a chance to get into the program if their more-qualified peers actually pursued those fields.</p>

<p>If there is solid statistical evidence that shows that the female application pool to COE is more than twice as qualified as the male application pool, I am willing to change my mind. However, it looks to me like some more of discriminatory admissions is be practiced. As it stands I think you are both making the wrong conclusion about why the data is the way it is. I am very interested in seeing the data that you have discussed by not provided because though your comments are certainly plausible they do not seem to line up. If what 2coll says is entirely true then the most reasonable conclusion is that women are far superior to men in math and science, which I profoundly doubt is the case either.</p>

<p>I hope you’ll understand that I’m not narrow-mindedly dismissing your case like some posters have. The absence of women in scientific fields is a serious problem, but both of your views seem lead to problematic (and contradictory) conclusions. 2coll’s points would lead me to believe that women in math and science are much better than men, while Greekfire would have me believe that they are worse off but only because of discrimination. These conclusions at at least certainly not both true.</p>

<p>@Grape1, I appreciate your response, and I don’t think it is at all narrow-minded. Affirmative action in this and other instances is a topic that is always in need of rational viewpoints from both sides. However, I would like to make it clear that I don’t think discrimination is the reason there are so few women in STEM fields (and if that was what you concluded from my post, that may have been my error in miscommunicating my point).</p>

<p>Also, “prohibitively difficult” may have been a bit hyperbolic, but I don’t think I was entirely off the mark in that regard.</p>

<p>I do agree that the lack of women in STEM fields is due to interest and not discrimination (and I do agree that there are a number of advantages women choosing a STEM major have these days: someone brought up female-targeted scholarships, which I think is an entirely valid point) but I still stand by the “invisible social pressures” I cited in my first post as being a large factor in deterring girls to develop an interest in the first place. I have a leadership role in an organization at my school that tries to encourage more girls into STEM careers. I do realize STEM careers are not for everyone, but I have noticed that <a href=“warning:%20anecdotal%20evidence%20follows”>i</a>* girls are far less likely to cite, “I’m not really into science and math” as a reason for why they’re not interested in STEM fields than “Oh, I’m not really good at science and math”. My personal interpretation of this is that society is not, to put it briefly, very girl-geek-friendly. In the example you brought up (qualified girls taking Choir over AP Physics), certainly there are a lot of factors that go into making such a decision (not wanting to overtax themselves with a heavy courseload, a greater interest in Choir, &c) but I do think that for some of them, they are subconsciously not taking AP Physics because they have internalized messages from society that cause them to believe they can’t excel in that area.</p>

<p>I believe the stated goal of affirmative action is to support an underrepresented group under the assumption that its members are negatively affected by a history of discrimination. Whether it is effective and necessary in increasing the number of minorities who attend college or the number of minorities who get into STEM fields (because traditionally African-Americans & Hispanics will be underrepresented in STEM fields as well) is debatable and something I personally am still trying to decide for myself. </p>

<p>I certainly recognize that, in a hypothetical situation, admitting a less-qualified girl over a qualified guy is penalizing the guy on the basis of something he has no control over. And having an institutional policy of affirmative action is in itself damaging to the effort of trying to encourage women in technology if women (or their male peers) get the idea that girls are being admitted because they are female. Being the “token girl” in your own viewpoint or from the viewpoint of others is a hurtful and damaging mindset, and as long as affirmative action towards women in STEM fields exists, this mindset will be perpetuated. (See 2coll’s link to the MIT blog post and the reference to “some Course Sixer’s girlfriend”.) For me, personally, I would like to believe that any college acceptances I receive next spring are as a result of my accomplishments and perceived potential, and that academically I am an equal to any other student, male or female, admitted to that particular engineering program.</p>

<p>I don’t see this as backpedaling from my original point so much as admitting that this is an issue for which there is no easy answer, and to choose a position and blindly maintain it is I think the height of foolishness. It’s hard to be an absolutist in this. But I think that, in general, people can underestimate the messages that girls will internalize from society.</p>

<p>In other news, I recently had an interview with an adcom member and inquired (perhaps unwisely) as to his or his institution’s stance on affirmative action. Certainly the data seems to imply that there is quite a lot of that happening in many engineering programs, but I’d prefer to get an official statement on the matter.</p>

<p>@wintergreen: citation needed. I am personally of the opinion that it is impossible to separate socialization from any ‘innate’ mathematical ability stemming from what gender someone is, but I’d be interested to see what the research on this is. In particular: if anyone can apply this idea that males are better at math & science to the population of MTF or FTM transgendered people.</p>

<p>@Grape1</p>

<p>These are one of many stats that people would be interested in knowing but are never published. Not required to be disclosed. These do come up in informal discussions though. Some other things that are not published include SAT scores by race, SAT+GPA combinations of accepted students by race, gender and geography etc. </p>

<p>However, self-selected female group can be inferred (at least at Cornell Engineering) by the statistically higher GPA achieved by females over male. Paradoxically, retention rate is lower in CoE for females. One reason possibly could be a far larger percentage of females in engineering are pre-med. After the first year, they just find it more comfortable to pursue Biology or Chemistry.</p>