Engineering Job Issues: i.e. off-shoring, ageism, etc. (NOT A TROLL THREAD!!!)

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>Trolls stay away, I want to have a serious discussion about these issues, because they are real issues. No belly-aching or fear-mongering here, please. Such things only cloud the issues.</p>

<p>First off, we all know off-shoring is real. I for one have no problem with it, as a staunch believe in economic freedom. But I don't really want to talk about the economics or politics of it, but what it means for the average engineering grad.</p>

<p>For example, it's darn hard to get hard data on what types of jobs are being done by cheaper labor abroad, and what jobs are staying here. Something else that's hard to get data on are the employment prospects for Americans engineers in overseas countries. Are there good prospects in South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Ireland, Germany, etc.? Most Americans are familiar with the concept of foreigners coming to America to work, but I find most Americans find the idea of working and living in another country for an extended period (or forever) icky.</p>

<p>So what does an engineering major have to fear? What about computer engineering? Should a computer engineering major expect to just get a job as a programmer? Should he expect to live abroad? Are actual "computer engineer" jobs (IC design and the like) out there, in this country?</p>

<p>One thing that clouds the issue is that you hear from one side: just look at all of the wanted ads, of course there are engineering positions! And the other side says: the companies only post wanted ads so they can justify to the immigration people why they need another visa. And both sides have plenty of anecdotal evidence. A recruiter was on the board a few months ago and talking about how hard a time they have finding qualified engineering applicants, I asked them to elaborate, given that there are unemployed engineers or engineers working in grunt jobs they are overqualified for, etc. No reply.</p>

<p>Not to mention that the current recession has dampened economic growth and thus demand for engies lately.</p>

<p>And what about ageism? I know I've asked about this before, if you don't still want to talk about it, ya don't hafta. But I'm still hoping that <em>somebody</em> can point me to some definitive studies or hard data on this, instead of just anecdotes and opinions.</p>

2

<p>

</p>

<p>What it means for the average engineering grad is that the competition has grown in size. A graduating engineer in certain offshoring-prone fields (Computer Science and Engineering, Electrical Engineering, and more recently other fields) will have to compete against other engineering grads, experienced engineers and people offshore. The offshore people have the advantage that they are willing to work for cheaper since they have much smaller college loans and lower costs of living.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Labor costs in South Korea, Singapore, Germany and Ireland are almost as high as they are in the United States so surely we are not alone in having to worry about offshoring. But to be blunt and honest, the American government is highly swayed by corporate interestsis and doesn’t do very much to protect jobs here.</p>

<p>Jobs that are tied to a physical location (such as a nuclear plant or a wind farm) are not as easily offshored as other jobs. It’s just every individual must operate like a business, showing that they are able to deliver value that others cant and justify why they are worth more to the company than others abroad. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes there are actual computer engineering jobs out here. Intel, AMD, IBM, HP, NVIDIA, and many others still have large offices here. In fact, programming jobs are easier to offshore than IC design jobs though both are candidates for offshoring. And not all programming jobs are equal so one doesn’t necessarily have to worry about being “stuck” with programming. But India, Taiwan, and China are emerging players in CompE.</p>

<p>Defense-related jobs are also very difficult to offshore. MIT Lincoln Labs, Raytheon, General Dynamics and others have many CompE jobs that they won’t offshore.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>It is an employer’s market right now. They can set the qualifications as high as they want and if they are willing to wait long enough, they can get an employee who has those qualifications. Some (but not many) jobs actually require these qualificaitons.</p>

<hr>

<p>OK I will leave the rest of the questions to others.</p>

3

<p>Before this thread goes farther you people who are fixated on this need to STOP describing this as an “engineering problem.” It isn’t. It is a problem that affects a few select industries that happen to have a lot of engineers working in them. However, the vast majority o engineers won’t ever have problems with this.</p>

<p>Please stop using the general term “engineering” when describing problems that don’t affect all engineers in general. Be more specific, like say “IT industry” or “computer engineering.” Otherwise you are misleading people.</p>

4

<p>I appreciate the tone of the OP in addressing this topic, as well as those who have responded thus far.</p>

5

<p>The GAO link specifies one industry, which I believe is the point boneh3ad is trying to make. It is not a problem with engineering as a whole; just some industries that include engineers, and not all of them.</p>

6

<p>Off-shoring takes a lot of jobs even for international students who do their specialized IT graduate studies here. 2009 was a brutal job search year. Competition for entry level job positions or developer positions that ask for 2+ years of experience - People who responded were the ones with 4 to 5 years of experience willing to take entry level job for any or less than their previous pay package ( The ones who were in the front of career fair queues applying for the same jobs. I still talk to those people. There are a few out of jobs for the last ). Source: My friend is a HR assistant manager at a man power firm that does only IT services (they hire people for their clients). Internships were for people who had 2 years of experience. Well in India there was a hiring freeze for Outsourced projects(From US) but heard most of the new projects were from South America, Europe and inside the country(ie., local markets). India survived because local markets are expanding. I am a BE (Computer Science), MBA (Management Information Systems) currently pursuing MS in Information Assurance at Johns Hopkins international student. No job during recession. Gone back to school. Thinking about changing my majors. No matter what a friend of mine who is a World Wide sales manager at IBM for JAVA says “IT is going to the drains”.</p>

7

<p>I’m aware of that bonehead, but I didn’t want to have to keep typing “IT/CompE/CS/Software/whatever/whatever/whatever.” I figure the civil engineers and others who work in less volatile labor markets would just figure out I wasn’t talking about them and move along.</p>

8

<p>Well, as you know, IT and engineering (of the kind which is relevant to this thread) aren’t the same, even though there is sometimes overlap. Generic “IT” is easy to outsource to other companies, regardless of whether they are in another country or not. I was wanting more information of exactly what types of industries and what types of jobs are “safest” for engineers in America. I hear conflicting information all of the time. For instance, I hear about the engineers who remain unemployed for years, but I also hear about defense contractors always looking for good engineers. Something is wrong somewhere.</p>

<p>Any engineering HR or hiring people want to talk anonymously, now’s your chance!!!</p>

9

<p>

</p>

<p>And yet, since a lot of prospective engineers peruse this forum who have no experience with this stuff, that isn’t really a great assumption to make. A lot of those people in high school don’t have a clue what the actual job market is like for each field. Us older posters know, but the kids don’t. That is my concern.</p>

10

<p>i lost my job at what could be considered the top gig in the aerospace industry due to an ageism issue with two of the people i was to work with. they were an older male and female that didn’t want to work with such a young engineer. funny thing is that they were the ONLY ones at a company of 140 people who had such an issue. best part was that i got no notice and was not afforded a real reason for my dismissal. i was escorted out immediately as if i didn’t move 1000 miles specifically for that job. let’s just say that their conduct would be considered illegal in some states.</p>

<p>in the end the joke is on them; i’ll just wait for them to retire and then overwrite their work with something much better. even some of the top people at the company (and the advisors to the company) have told me that they think that what they did to me was a huge mistake. talk about creating a fracture in the workplace…lol</p>

11

<p>Hurray. Here’s to studying to be a computer engineer/comsci guy! No jobs! Oh wait… that’s one of the few things I enjoy doing. @*#%@#%!!! </p>

<p>(<em>#%&</em>#@&%!!!
lol :smiley: </p>

<p>I swear these things are always overpopulated with MBAs (from crappy schools) bragging about how the much much harder engineering degrees are totally worthless</p>

12

<p>Wow, sorry to hear that, rocketDA. What would… “el Jefe” think of those practices?</p>

13

<p>boneh3ad,
i wrote el jefe a personal letter (after i asked him if it’d be okay if we conversed through his private email without his assistants). i went through 4-5 iterations, at first being very tactful and held-back. however, one of the top engineers/managers there told me that since i was thrown under the bus that i shouldn’t hold back throwing them under the bus. so i did. i spelled it out for him as clear as day. i told the sequence of events in a 4-page letter and sent it. i never heard back from him.</p>

<p>the company admitted a certain degree of guilt, however, when i got word that they were requiring the managers involved to go to management training. if i ever work for that company again in the future i want a formal letter of apology, compensation for lost wages, a hefty bonus, and a 3-year guarantee of employment with substantial raise. basically, **** those guys.</p>

14

<p>I once came back from a one-week trip to find I’d been replaced at my job at the candy store, because my idiot co-worker told the bosses that I’d be gone for a month instead of a week. This in spite of the fact that I laid it down in writing, posted it on the calendar, spoke with my boss about the trip, and even made it clear during my JOB INTERVIEW for that position that I had a week-long trip coming up.</p>

<p>We all get screwed from time to time.</p>

15

<p>That’s not quite the same magnitude of being screwed though, in all fairness.</p>

16

<p>obviously, next time your co-worker will steal money from your ex-boss because he’s so easy to be deceived. If you were out for a week you must have filed an off paper properly. wait, a candy store? lol</p>