engineering question

College Majors Engineering Majors
21

<p>"This is how I see it:
Education is not something you can return to a store or "ask for your money back" - it's not something you should put a price on. Though monetary issues are important, they should be second to education. The amount of knowledge you obtain in college has no price. </p>

<p><snipped></snipped></p>

<p>I chose the road that will lead me to debt, but I also chose the road that will lead me to knowledge; and that, in my opinion, is the most important thing in life."</p>

<p>Walden, it sounds like you made the right decision for you. I applaud you for that. While I'm not a rabid fan of mountainous debt for young people just starting out (or their parents, for that matter), I agree that for some the best long-term investment they will ever make will be their education. I think you stated that very well. Congratulations on your acceptance, and I wish you all good things on your intellectual journey ahead.</p>

22

<p>Dr. Reynolds, I so enjoyed your posts on this thread that I looked up the website at UAFS. It appears to me that your school is doing some great things for your students. I think the key word in your second post (re UAFS) is "small" as your school favors a strong teaching emphasis. The state school one of my sons chose is also small with a similar philosophy, and it has served him very well.</p>

<p>I particularly enjoyed your comment about your mom as it put me in mind of my own mother who, decades ago, returned to the work force in order to help finance my brother's aero eng education at... ::drumroll:: Purdue (!) -- a decision neither she nor he ever regretted.</p>

<p>While I respect your judgment about the students you've seen, I would note that my younger son's experience has been somewhat different, along the lines of what tomboy and Walden have posted here. Cohort does make a difference -- not only in the classroom but in curriculum design; thus, it's a legitimate academic concern. It may go against our egalitarian sensibilities but it's a fact and no more inequitable than high schools offering AP or IB classes which not every student can or wants to take.</p>

23

<p>Sakky,</p>

<pre><code> I think student retention is a concern of both private and public institutions. I teach at a state school and we discuss retention all the time. We have retention committees and a task force. It is a HUGE deal for us. I cannot speak of other schools.
</code></pre>

24

<p>"And the absolute worst thing you can do is choose the cheaper school, only to flunk out."</p>

<p>Uh... I can think of one thing worse, Sakky. Choose the expensive school, for which you incurred debt to attend, only to flunk out; kind of like being upside-down on a new-car loan, and the car gets totaled. It's certainly been known to happen at other privates than just the schools you specified. </p>

<p>I'm glad you brought this up. College can be an unpredictable experience for a lot of kids. This might be an important factor for some people to consider when deciding whether or not to incur huge educational debt. It's a hidden risk factor at some schools, especially in tough disciplines like engineering. I agree that graduation rate merits close scrutiny beforehand.</p>

25

<p>Mudder,</p>

<pre><code> Thanks for your comments! To clarify something, I don't regret my schooling, I just think that the price wasn't worth it when compared with what you can get from some state schools.

And I certainly agree that cohort groups matter. It has just been my observation that the cohort groups aren't as different as the rankings may suggest. We've got excellent students in our program that compare well with who I taught at Purdue.
</code></pre>

26

<p>Graduation rates at state universities reflect the fact that many students there, particularly at urban schools, have financial situations that delay their graduation. </p>

<p>Dr_reynolds, do you know what the national rate for retention of engineering majors is? I think at one time I heard that forty per cent of students who start out in engineering transfer out of that major.</p>

27

<p>Chrisd,</p>

<pre><code> There are a lot of different definitions of retention. Only about 40 percent of students who start in engineering as a freshman actually graduate in engineering. I heard this figure at Purdue and I attended a conference on retention in engineering and that seemed to be the accepted number there.
</code></pre>

28

<p>
[quote]
Uh... I can think of one thing worse, Sakky. Choose the expensive school, for which you incurred debt to attend, only to flunk out; kind of like being upside-down on a new-car loan, and the car gets totaled. It's certainly been known to happen at other privates than just the schools you specified.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But that's the point - the elite private schools by and large tend to have higher graduation rates than the public schools do. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Graduation rates at state universities reflect the fact that many students there, particularly at urban schools, have financial situations that delay their graduation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree that is a factor. But it's far from the only one. The other major factor involved is that public schools tend to have less advising and other safety nets to see their students through. So if some students get lost along the way, the attitude seems to be a simple shrug of the shoulders.</p>

29

<p>From the persective of engineering in itself, I would take the $$$ and go to the "lesser" school. If you really want to be a practicing engineer, at least. Unless you are among the very top engineering prospects in the country, and want to be recognized as such.</p>

<p>Engineering is a very meritocratic profession, in my experience. Promotions come to those that earn it on the job, regardless of their educational instiutution. Hiring is broad, and candidates from public colleges can qualify, and are hired,for most or all jobs. </p>

<p>People at my company came from many colleges, both private and public. Public universities of various stratas were well represented there. The people from public or "lesser" colleges got the same job I got.</p>

<p>The training at most schools is virtually the same from what I could tell.</p>

<p>To the extent that the "better" schools place more emphasis on highly theoretical matters and more complicated problems, these are all virtually irrelevant in engineering practice.</p>

<p>If you're concerned about the prestige, you can always apply to a prestigious school's 1-year Master of Engineering program and maybe still come out ahead financially.</p>

<p>But I just haven't seen educational prestige as buying as much in this profession as it does in some others. Maybe for the few Microsoft jobs or whatever, but not for the vast majority of openings out there.</p>

30

<p>dr_reynolds, at the risk of responding to a quote possibly taken out of context, would you say that students are pretty similar across "expensive private schools", "large top-10 research schools", and "small state schools" just in engineering, or also in other fields such as the sciences, social sciences, and humanities? If not, why do you think that is the case for just engineering?</p>

31

<p>4th floor,</p>

<pre><code>It's difficult for me to comment on other fields since my experience in them is pretty limited. What I've seen in engineering is that there's good students, average students and poor students in each of those places. And the average student group in each of those places was about the same (in terms of ability). My point is that the student's were not that much different, which suprised me since I had previously thought that high ranked schools like Purdue had "better students".
</code></pre>

32

<p>What you describe is quite consistent with something pointed out by sakky and ariesathena in another context, that engineering salaries exhibit a high degree of compression.</p>

<p>If we are willing to entertain the hypothesis that such similarity in student ability across different sizes and selectivities of universities occurs uniquely in engineering, then I am really curious about what it is in engineering that causes this phenomenon.</p>

33

<p>Allow me to help with some "crossed bearings". My experience and my son's are appropos.</p>

<p>I graduated from Cornell, back when tuition was (are you sitting down?) $3700 per year. It seemed like a lot of money back then. Houses were approaching $50K!</p>

<p>Over my roller-coaster career, there have been times when the Ivy League name on the resume has impressed somebody. This is after adding LOTS of other things, including two masters degrees and other coursework to my resume. (I believe in lifetime learning.) For a some people--not many, but some who are very important--the prestigious diploma has made a difference. I have had that experience in the past few months, in fact. </p>

<p>My oldest son is in engineering at the University of Virginia. (Graduation rate: 92%!) He was rejected by Cornell, but admitted to an equally selective and expensive university, Northwestern. (I know, I can't figure it out either.) He chose UVa, of course, because it's less than half the tuition. </p>

<p>He is having the time of his life--in both engineering and other academic pursuits. His peers are serious students, and his courses are challenging. A state university was not a mistake for us. (To be sure, UVa is not your typical state U, so your mileage may vary.)</p>

<p>There are no facts to cite, to answer the OP's original question, that would favor a big-name, big-dollar education. There are some 'fuzzy logic' things that might be a consideration:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>I believe these big research universities put more emphasis on the theory behind their engineering. Almost subliminally, they are preparing their students for an academic role. </p></li>
<li><p>Grades are harder to come by at some heavy-duty schools. Cornell averaged its courses to a C+ when I went there. My GPA doesn't look very good when compared with others--but I beat the average!</p></li>
<li><p>There is a flip side to the above bullet. When you've completed a tough academic program, it instills a feeling of confidence. This is helpful going forward. I don't think life tossed me any challenges that were as intimidating or relentless as my four years at Cornell.</p></li>
<li><p>In my memory, everybody at Cornell was smarter than I. This made friendships more valuable, as it helped me through some horrendous problem sets. More importantly, it taught me real humility. A man's gotta know his limitations.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Do these intangible, 'experiential' factors outweigh the disadvantage of a mountain of debt? I think the question answers itself. Go for the free ride, make the most of it, and don't look back. </p>

<p>But, be sure you understand that others have made sacrificies to go to Cornell (and other expensive places), and that their decisions may be right for reasons that are not obvious or applicable to you.</p>

34

<p>Hi Tomboy!
I will be applying to Olin in the next few years and wanted to get an idea of what my chances of admissions are. (Yes, I know, theres no 'mold' for an Olin student! (Which is what I LOVE about the school, among other things)) But what SAT/ACT scores do most ppl have upon applying? How advanced in math and science are they?(What courses etc..) I saw on the website that a few kids had patents. Out of curiosity, what was it that they patented? </p>

<p>Thanks for all your help! I really appreciate it.</p>

35

<p>Since I happened to find this one before Ash I'll answer give you my perspective (in case she isn't around to answer soon). Of course, she'll probably find it later today in which case she can give you her answer as well. </p>

<p>Our literature has the average SAT of Olin students. It's been pretty constant so I imagine it's still about 1510. Of course, that's just one number, but yes, Oliners do tend to have very good standardized test scores. </p>

<p>As far as prep goes: I had calc BC and calc-less physics, which, for my class anyway, seemed about average. The kids who had a really solid math and physics background have it easier first year, but at least one of my classmates had no physics coming into Olin and still survived.</p>

36

<p>My daughter had AB calc, and calc-less, use-less physics from our h.s. Also AP chem, and an intro to EE at CMU over a summer. </p>

<p>I think most all Oliners come in with numerous AP courses.</p>

37

<p>How did your daughter find the Intro to EE summer course at CMU? Did she have time to take a second course too?</p>

38

<p>
[quote]
calc-less, use-less physics from our h.s.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, me too. I knew it was a useless and watered down class while I was taking it, but my freshman year at Olin taught me just how useless and watered down it had been.</p>