@“Erin’s Dad” There will be a very different caliber student at each school. The incoming SAT scores are about 200 points or more per section lower for incoming freshmen at CSULA. For example, the 75% Math at CSULA is 500 and at UCLA is 750. There is no way similar classes would be able to be taught to the same depth or at the same speed. In general, I’d be willing to bet an engineering student at UCLA would really struggle against their classmates if they scored 500 on the Math SAT. Sure, there is probably some minimum amount of material both programs cover but something has to be different - it’s not like the UCLA students are having an easy time in their classes. Are you going to say Princeton engineering is the same as CSULA too?
BTW, not trying to pick on CSULA, it’s just makes an extreme example (based on incoming student stats) within the same city.
@youcee Your comment is what I was wondering. We have three friends with freshman at various schools all doing engineering. One is at a top 20 public university… she was a top ranked kid, scored well on the ACT 33 and is retaking Calc I (scored 5 on the AP test) and Physics. The physics class is killing her she will do fine but it is really challenging, and supposedly, it is the weed-out class. Friend 2’s son is at an IVY… same stats as the other girl… it is really hard but everyone there is struggling ( and studying a lot), then our third friend’s d is at the least competitive school of the three… top 90+, she has the exact same stats as the other two friends (she took the full-ride scholarship), but the classes are easy (taking the same classes). But, I was not sure if the “easiness” for her was because she has a better understanding of the subjects or if it was because the classes really are easier at this particular school (btw she loves the school). I know her mom told me that she feels pressure “not to study” because many of the kids she is around do not prioritize academics as much. She is an out-of-state student and all of the three went to very competitive high schools where not studying was not an option.
@“Erin’s Dad” Let me give you a specific example of how ABET accredited programs can differ, and this is just from one school year to year. A couple of years ago, a freshman design course for MechE did some CAD work for a simple device over the course of a quarter. There was no hands on work, only submitting CAD files. That satisfied the ABET accreditation. Last year they changed the course to design a much more complex device, a robot, and they had to build it too. So not only did the CAD drawings become more complicated, they had to cut parts from the drawings, program an Arduino, and build a robot that had sensors and moved. So both versions of the course satisfied ABET accreditation, but one involved much more work and having to learn many things that weren’t even part of the course before. So a program that has 10-15 major courses that go above and beyond the minimum requirements will give a student a much different experience. Cal Poly is another school that goes above and beyond the minimum with lots of hands on experience.
Here is something for you to think about, does she want to struggle through weed out classes ? Or, would she prefer to get a solid grade and have time for research or other academic pursuits?
I have one son who lives for the struggle. Seriously, if it isn’t constant pressure, he gets no satisfaction. My other son would buckle under the pressure and change majors.
One thing that was big in DS1 search was looking at the number of jobs available in the region of the school.
Can she do some overnight visits with your friends’ students?
@cheetahgirl121 I used an extreme example - you mentioned Alabama which I’d think is not an extreme case at all. I don’t know a lot about the school, but if we were in the southeast it would probably be a pretty solid option, especially with the great scholarships. There must be a decent cohort of National Merit scholars there with the merit they provide, so a smart kid should find others of similar ability.
I would agree with @Longhaul about the availability of jobs in the region and the ability to get hired where you want. I’d bet an Alabama grad would have a lot easier time getting hired in the southeast than a Cal Poly grad would, but on the west coast it would be exactly the opposite.
To expand on a previous point and use Cal Poly as an example again - it’s in the CSU system and Cal Poly engineers will have tons of hands on work by the time they graduate. I’ve talked to a few engineering grads from another top CSU and they had almost no hands on experience getting their degree. So schools in the same system can provide very different educational experiences.
And so are a huge bunch at Bama’s college of eng’g. Your DD would not be one of the few tippy top students. She’d be amongst her own.
I’m so glad that my kids went to Bama on huge merit (one NMF, the other Presidential, eng’g merit, and National Merit Special Scholarship). Their undergrad education cost us so little. I know that many think, “I’m paying for their 4 years of undergrad and after that, they’re on their own.” I can tell you personally, they’re often not on their own after college graduation. My younger son is 25 year old, graduated with a ChemEng’g degree, but he’s been in med school the last 3.5 years and hasn’t earned a dime since he was an undergrad! Lol (which is typical, med students can’t work)…so, he’s still very dependent on us, which is ok since his undergrad cost us very little.
I would say the answer to this question depends a lot on what the student wants to do with the engineering degree. Do they want to live close to home or somewhere else specific? Then it might be better to stay with a locally respected ABET school of any prestige level. Do they want a lot of flexibility in first job location? Companies who recruit nationally tend to do so only at top campuses. Does the student want to consider full time graduate school, law school, med school, etc.? There will probably be more students thinking that way at a higher ranked program. (Note that a master’s degree is the working level for engineers in many industries; many employers will subsidize a part time MS or MBA.)
@cheetahgirl121 “But, I was not sure if the “easiness” for her was because she has a better understanding of the subjects or if it was because the classes really are easier at this particular school (btw she loves the school). I know her mom told me that she feels pressure “not to study” because many of the kids she is around do not prioritize academics as much.”
It really is easier at the lesser school. On average, they are not nearly as demanding. If they tried to give the level of work that a top school gives, most of the students would not be prepared for it and fail.
Schools have to move at a pace that matches the students they have.
"So, what is a student missing if they do not go to a top tier school? "
You are still covering all of the ABET material and should be completely functional as an engineer. At a less rigorous school, you don’t get the level of rigor, or depth of learning. You will feel like you do, but if you see what is going on at the top schools, you will realize that it is not covered in the same depth.
Some students want to know what they need to know. Other students want to learn more and be challenged more.
Rankings
Engineering rankings are based solely on peer rankings. Peer rankings tend to focus on things like research done by professors. For that reason, the level of rigor will be more correlated with the schools overall ranking than the engineering ranking.
Finding the right school
Engineering schools can vary a lot and engineering is a difficult subject. The school you choose really does matter. Looking through the rankings should be a very minor weighting in selecting a school. Consider identifying a range of schools where the test scores and gpa reasonably align with your student. Also identify schools where you may be eligible for merit scholarships. It is a good idea to work with your guidance counselor if you are not experienced at this. If you post the student’s gpa, test scores and other information you will be able to get many helpful suggestions here too.
Key factors to consider
Cost
Schools with large endowment often have better financial aid if you are low income. If you are higher income and looking for merit aid, then Alabama and similar schools have excellent opportunities. Become familiar with the cost estimators on each schools website.
Graduation rate
In engineering the avg. graduation rate is about 60% but it ranges widely. In general the higher ranked schools, and the more supportive schools will tend to have higher graduation rates.
Access to majors
How easily can you choose your own major? How easily can a student transfer to another major?
Most public colleges are capacity constrained in engineering and do not allow engineering students to choose and change their major freely. The student may have to apply after one year and then may be rejected from their choice. Other schools may give a student admission to a major but the student will have to apply if they want to transfer to another major. They may be rejected and either forced into a major they did not choose or have to transfer. Schools like Lehigh and Case Western offer great flexibility.
Placement
Placement rates are generally good in engineering, but they do vary from school to school. Rose Hulman (I have no connection) is not the most difficult school, for example, but the graduation rate for engineers is high and the placement is excellent.
Engineer's in many majors often make similar money in similar jobs regardless of where they went to school. Find out whether this is true for your students interest area. Also, while they my make similar money in the same jobs, top schools may be able to place many more students into high paying companies. Investigate the career surveys that schools provide showing average salaries, and companies where students were placed. In general, schools that share more information the school will share, and more specific the information, are more successful in placement. They will provide average salaries by major, and the specific companies where grads were placed.
Support
Access to professors? Percent of classes taught by professors? Class sizes? Do they have recitation? Do they offer tutoring for free? Do they offer tutoring for a fee? How accessible and convenient are these things? Basically, when I am feeling lost in calc II or physics, what tools are available to get myself back on track before I am in big trouble. Most engineering students will find themselves in this spot at one time or another, and you need to know where the emergency buttons are.
Range of majors offered. In general, I think there is not a lot of value to this, but it depends on the student. They should at least offer Computer science, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, electrical engineering, and systems engineering. Other majors are often specialties on these. For example, aerospace engineering is a specialty of mechanical engineering.
OP, as @mom2collegekids said, there are many top students at UA.
Typically these STEM students still have to apply themselves very well to their Math, Physics classes in addition to the engineering/CS if that is their field, or other fields of study.
There are a number of students that have never has below an A grade until college.
DD went to public school for 7th grade, and out of 350 seventh graders, she was in the top 5 students and the only girl. UA is challenging enough (as any ABET accredited engineering program). Glad to finish the two calc based physics requirements and all the math courses - she said everything she is learning now as a junior are things she will use in her profession. Having had two internships already in her field (civil engineering), she is aware of how to apply her learning to what she observed in the workplace.
There are some scholarship students at every school that do not make the transition well from HS to college. Certainly some colleges have easier grading than others. The college paradigm is very different from many HSs. DD went to a college prep private HS so she was use to the level of homework and studying to transition well to college (including peer students who were mostly prepared for college too).
As a parent, it is up to you to decide how to educate DD about what cost effective means.
Just like any kid, they want what they believe is the best, believe they have worked hard for the best, etc etc. Best doesn’t have to mean the most costly, highest rated in specific category, or however else they define it.
If DD gets on enough campuses which end up being great options with merit reducing out of pocket significantly, perhaps will see what are great options and get beyond the engineering school rankings.
College is not all academics either. Growing socially, having some fun, etc.
You may be surprised when you see the inner workings of the rankings and how easily a slight tweek can cause a big difference in rank. I was going to put in some quotes from the article, but there were too many nuggets to choose from. Really, go read it!
The first (non-military) engineering degree awarded in the US (by RPI) was in Civil Engineering (in 1835). It remains the second most popular engineering degree behind Mechanical Engineering.
Environmental Engineering (a specialization within Civil Engineering) has the highest concentration of women of any engineering discipline.
Systems Engineering is a specialized degree program that may be associated with a number of other disciplines. There are maybe 15 schools in the country (outside of the military academies) that offer ABET accredited Systems Engineering at the undergraduate level and none of them are the most familiar names.
For maximum flexibility, the core engineering disciplines that someone should look for are:
Mechanical
Civil
Electrical
Chemical
Computer Science is a very popular discipline that started out as applied mathematics in many schools and in the case of some schools migrated into the engineering department.
Ideally a school offers Computer Science degrees as both a liberal arts program and an engineering program to provide the most flexibility.
“Systems Engineering” “none of them are the most familiar names.” None? University of Pennsylvania and University of Virginia , among others, offer undergraduate Systems Engineering degrees. As noted, Systems is also sometimes associated with other disciplines. Georgia Tech , Virginia Tech, Ohio State, Wisconsin,RPI, etc. have undergraduate Industrial and Systems Engineering programs.
@Much2learn
I have seen Alabama mentioned in several threads. I have only heard good things about the school from friends kids, alumni and others… and not just about football. And you mentioned it having good merit aid and opportunities. After reading the New Yorker article, should my student disregard the rankings info? I am not sure how to articulate but does being ranked +100 matter in the scheme of things? Given the feedback about Alabama it seems it should be ranked much higher than it is… but maybe I am missing something.
I"m gonna buck the tide here and say that engineering school rankings do matter. Here’s why:
I agree it's questionable whether rankings reflect true differences in quality of education between different schools. As someone pointed out, they're largely based on perception and intangible "prestige". But the reality of the world is that perceptions do matter because they become self-fulfilling: Top students and professors are attracted to "top schools" because they are perceived as being better (whether they objectively are or not). That collection of talent then enhances the schools perception of being a "top school", attracting more "top" students and professors. (Because to most people - not all - perceptions matter. Would the average person rather tell their friends they're a professor at Cornell or at U of Nebraska? Unless they're a diehard Huskers fan, if they're offered a job by both, they'll probably choose Cornell.)
Top-ranked schools attract the smartest students overall. A look at the average SAT scores generally correlates to rankings. Being around students who are smart - probably smarter than you - pushes you to excel. (I'm talking in general - there will be smart kids at low ranked schools too.)
While they may all be ABET accredited, that is a minimum threshold, not a maximum. It doesn't mean all colleges teach the exact same course--it just means all those colleges' courses met the same minimum standard. The difficulty of the coursework will impact how much you learn and your ability to solve complex problems. Example: My D was a straight A student, 2300 SAT, etc., and finds the chemE courses her top-30 engineering school really tough, and she's among the top of her class -- in other words, they're all smart students and they're all struggling to keep up. Considering the average SAT of students at her college, I would venture to say that the average student at a sub 100 engineering school with much lower barriers to entry for students would flunk out (and in fact, there is a high dropout rate from engineering in general--that's something to look at when choosing a college).
Intern / co-op opportunities in college. Large companies having to make choices between intern applicants are more likely to choose one from one they "know" (whether that "knowing" is objective or subjective makes no difference) is a "better" school. Considering they know so little about the applicants, if they have one spot and can give it to a student from Duke or from WVU, they're likely to go with the former.
Given limited resources, companies will only attend career fairs of universities that are either local or that they perceive as having the best students. This again gives an advantage to students from those universities to secure internships (which can often lead to or facilitate jobs) at those companies.
University resources are not the same - how many labs students do, what kind of labs, how deep they do, the level of difficulty, access to professors, the research being done by professors, the student to faculty ratio, all impact how much they learn, not only in knowledge but more importantly, in problem solving skills (again, working with other smart students on team labs makes a difference).
Someone correctly pointed out that if you're hired by say, Boeing, for X engineering position, you'll get the same salary whether you came out of MIT or UF. And 10 years into your career, where you graduated from won't matter. But when you're applying to that first or second job at Boeing and you're competing against 50 applicants for the position, you can be sure that, mitigating circumstances aside, those from more prestigious universities have a better chance. (Sure, what you do in college matters--if you go to MIT and just scrape by, the MIT degree alone might not get you far. But assuming you put in the same amount of effort at MIT as UF, then the degree comes into play.) With an ABET eng decree from any college you will probably find a job. But what job, and what opportunities it opens, may not be the same.
This also means that your past and future alumni network is more likely to be people working at top companies and therefore of greater help to you. (Why do people want to go to Harvard? If's for the network, not the education.)
Global perception and competition is changing realities on the ground. It used to be going to college wasn't critical. We've read the stories about the guy working in the mail room who becomes CEO. Looking at profiles of famous CEOs you can find plenty who went to relatively lower-ranked schools - but those people are all in their 50s and 60s (or retired) - so their experience is irrelevant to today's new students. And just a college degree is the new high school degree, so the perception of where you got your degree from is changing due to globalisation and people from all over the world attending the best universities to compete for the best jobs.
Rankings are not the all in all, and I don’t think close rankings (ie. rank 20 vs 30) matter much if at all. But I would argue that large differences in rankings (20 vs 100) do matter.
One last point is that I believe the desires of the student are really important. For some students, rankings or perception, don’t matter. But for other students, they do. And we can tell them “look, you’ll get a good education either way”, but if that student busted their butt through high school to get good grades because they wanted to get into what they think (right or wrong) is a top school, it could be more than a bit discouraging for them to go to Z lower ranked school which they could have gotten into anyway with half the effort. If you’re good enough to get into X top-ranked school - even if those rankings are just based on people’s perception - you can feel cheated if you “settle” for something that (in your eyes) is “less”. UNLESS, by going to Z school you get tons of merit aid and graduate debt-free and/or at little cost to your parents in which case you may also feel that all your hard work paid off (depnding on your parents’ financial situation). My D initially said she didn’t care at all about rankings and she didn’t pay attention to them when researching colleges. However, the top 3 schools that she decided she wanted to go to, based on her research, just – surprise surprise! – all happened to be in the top 10 She didn’t get into her top 3 choices, but had she done so, I would have wanted her to have that feeling of accomplishment regardless of whether the actual education was objectively better at her choice than another lower ranked school.
@cheetahgirl121
Rankings matter some, but in general, most people care too much about name of the school, and don’t focus enough on choice of major, flexibility to change your majors, fit with the school, cost and post college placement success of the school.
All else equal, I do think that schools ranked around 60 like Maryland, Connecticut, Purdue, are probably a bit better than schools at 100 like Alabama. But in general, the differences are not large, and all things are rarely equal. If you have a 32 ACT and the grades to get a large scholarship from a school like Alabama, I think for many students it is a very good deal.
36..well written @insanedreamer .. I am with you in the "Eng schools matter" club ! Considering that my D2 will be a 3rd generation Engineer, and I have personally benefited, I have never wavered from this view.
She didn’t get into her top 3 choices, but had she done so, I would have wanted her to have that feeling of accomplishment regardless of whether the actual education was objectively better at her choice than another lower ranked school.